Decoction mashing: yes or no?

I've heard a lot of mixed opinions on decoction mashing. Some have told me that it's nice but the benefit is very small compared to the work. Others have said that decoction mashing is the only way to get the great malt flavors of German lagers, and that anything else is just not to style.

So I'm interested to hear some opinions. Who's got 'em?

I recently did a double decoction of pilsner malt for a bohemian pilsner. I did not notice any distinct caramel notes or anything that could be attributed to the decoction. Knowing that a single infusion mash could easily get me better efficiency and less work and time, I don't think I'll be doing decoction again. As far as my beers go I didn't notice any benefit for the work involved.

I think its worth it, sometimes, maybe.

if you want to only use pilsner malt and add color and flavor, decoction is the way to go.

a more complex grist and an infusion mash is easier.

I did a double decoction on the doppelbock that's in my fermentor now. It didn't feel like it was that much extra effort. Compared to a typical brew day with no decoction, I got one extra pot dirty. That was the small saucepan I used to pull the decoction out of the mash tun. Other than that and tending to the decoctions so they didn't burn, it really wasn't that much different. However, I have no idea of the effects of the decoction on this type of beer. This is my first bock. It was 18 pounds of Vienna, Munich, and a bit of debittered black, so it was already very malty. I got a nice caramel aroma during the decoction that carried over into the fermentor. That was the whole point of me doing the decoction, to try to add caramel flavor without crystal malts. It's all fun experimentation for me. We shall see how this beer comes out.

I've done a decoction for a hefeweizen before. It added color and a touch of maltiness, but I wouldn't bother doing it again for that type of beer.

I'm not so sure.

I brewed an Oktoberfest and the color is lighter and the flavor not as deep-malty as I'd hoped, which I think is because I opted for a step mash instead of a double decoction mash.

I'm brewing a doppelbock this weekend. Am trying to decide if I should try a decoction mash or stick with a step mash. Truly torn at this point. Also trying to decide if I should go with a thicker or thinner mash. shooting for a 1.100 OG, but in order to do that, I need to use a thicker mash 1.25 qts/lb rather than 1.5

Brewing Saturday..
TD

I have done many decoction mashes trying to decide if it was worth it. I've even organized large experiments with multiple blind tastings to try to figure it out. At this point, the results say that decoctions won't necessarily make a better beer. You probably should do one yourself someday so you can see what you think. Just be sure to do a blind, objective evaluation. That's one of the topics in my book that should be out in the spring.

I don't think it's tougher than doing a two step mash.

Besides its a good tool to develop if you ever f-up and undershoot a mash temperature: just pull a decoction.

I think blind tastings have shown that there's not a noticeable improvement (as a blanket rule), but if I have the time to do it I really enjoy it. As Dawson said on a brewingTV episode, it's just another layer of involvement between a brewer and his beer.

Hmmm.
Looking at a 3-4 hour triple decoction mash in the brew day vs a 60-90 minute mash and many experienced (Denny) and others saying no difference. I'm a NooB at lager brews, and thought it'd be "fun" to do decoction.

The big reason I decided to the do the DoppleBock this weekend was because the family (besides me who has to work and couldn't make the flight) was headed out of town. thus I have time to fool around with whatever. this PLUS, my last brew, an Oktoberfest, is sitting on a buttload of yeast, so I won't have to worry about underpitching and otherwise the yeast would be tossed.. and timing is good for Dopplebock as well..

anyway, I'm thinking and thinking about it. what kind of step mash schedule would you suggest for a traditional dopplebock style? I'm thinking a middle of the road 1.5 qts/lb thickness to the mash. With the dark malts, an acid rest probably useless. A protein rest might serve as a dough-in rest temp then immediately heat to saccharification temps. Any recommended sacc temps for a dopplebock? Sorry to hijack..

TD

I use a BIAB variation of Schmitz decoction. Doesn't take longer than an infusion mash, and I get good efficiency. I like the beer that I've made that way, and my beer took a jump in quality at about the same time that I started doing it this way (correlation might not be causation, however).

sptaylor70 said:

I use a BIAB variation of Schmitz decoction. Doesn't take longer than an infusion mash, and I get good efficiency. I like the beer that I've made that way, and my beer took a jump in quality at about the same time that I started doing it this way (correlation might not be causation, however).

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Can you elaborate on your method please?

In Pot 1, mash in at target temp. in 1.25-ish quarts per pound. Hold 30-60 minutes (or heat to sacch. rest temp. and then hold 30-60 minutes). Lift out and drain grain bag, then move grain to boiling Pot 2, also 1.25-ish quarts per pound. Boil 15-20 minutes. Lift out and drain grain bag, then return to Pot 1, where the wort has been maintained at temperature. Mash 15-30 minutes more. Lift out and drain grain bag, then move grain bag to Pot 2 for mash out (temp. = 170+ degF). Steep 5ish minutes, then lift out and drain final time. As volumes allow, combine both pots' contents for boiling.

Just to be sure - you only use pot 1 once?

Just noticed and edited - Pot 1 (mash), Pot 2 (boil), Pot 1 (more mashing), Pot 2 (mash out).

sptaylor70 said:

Just noticed and edited - Pot 1 (mash), Pot 2 (boil), Pot 1 (more mashing), Pot 2 (mash out).

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Got it. Thanks!

My first time stewarding a competition, I was put on a flight of Oktoberfest/Vienna lager. The one that won was the only one that really had that beefy malty flavor popping out. As a newb I could taste that. The contest organizer was one of the judges, and he said that it was probably the only one that was decoction mashed. If you're planning on entering into competition, 2 hours might be the difference between a blue ribbon and nothing.

Since then, I've made a few Berliner Weisse batches, one a single decoction and two not decoction. I saw no difference in the two for that style.

I would go for it if you are making an amber lager and you want it to hold up against rival beers. I will be making one soon.

TrickyDick said:

Hmmm.
Looking at a 3-4 hour triple decoction mash in the brew day vs a 60-90 minute mash and many experienced (Denny) and others saying no difference. I'm a NooB at lager brews, and thought it'd be "fun" to do decoction.

The big reason I decided to the do the DoppleBock this weekend was because the family (besides me who has to work and couldn't make the flight) was headed out of town. thus I have time to fool around with whatever. this PLUS, my last brew, an Oktoberfest, is sitting on a buttload of yeast, so I won't have to worry about underpitching and otherwise the yeast would be tossed.. and timing is good for Dopplebock as well..

anyway, I'm thinking and thinking about it. what kind of step mash schedule would you suggest for a traditional dopplebock style? I'm thinking a middle of the road 1.5 qts/lb thickness to the mash. With the dark malts, an acid rest probably useless. A protein rest might serve as a dough-in rest temp then immediately heat to saccharification temps. Any recommended sacc temps for a dopplebock? Sorry to hijack..

TD

Click to expand...

I do a higher temperature protein rest, at 131-133, and make it a short one. Then I go to a saccrification rest, followed by mash out.

A traditional decoction schedule is the Hochkurtz double decoction mash, which has two saccrification rests (and since it's a low temperature beta amylase rest for the first rest, the protein rest is skipped). I've done that several times with an Oktoberfest, and liked it.

Here's some good info on decoction mashing: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

Yooper said:

I do a higher temperature protein rest, at 131-133, and make it a short one. Then I go to a saccrification rest, followed by mash out.

A traditional decoction schedule is the Hochkurtz double decoction mash, which has two saccrification rests (and since it's a low temperature beta amylase rest for the first rest, the protein rest is skipped). I've done that several times with an Oktoberfest, and liked it.

Here's some good info on decoction mashing: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

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I know that the doppelbock is very malty style. I've never brewed one before, but have tasted several commercial examples. I'm not entirely sure for sacc rest(s) where to go, but am thinking that it should be mashed a lower range to promote lighter body, because the OG is1.096-1.100 range there is going to be a ton of malt and body from that alone? That seems contrary to what my common sense tells me, but I don't want it to finish at 1.030 either.

I've been studying the braukaiser pages, but its been a few months. Need to go back and check that all out. That was my inspiration for starting to brew some lagers in the first place! That Hochkurtz DD mash is appropriate for a doppelbock style? I need to check out Kai's dopplebock recipe again to see what temps he's mashing at. I'm basically using his recipe, but I want to make a 1.100 OG just because, it seems like it'd be cool as I've never brewed that high gravity brew before. Unfortunately, I might need to add extract to accomplish, or else run my mash too thin, or make a smaller batch size / boil it down more. But that is a different issue.

I'm still on the nice between step mash and decoction mashing. I'm sort of thinking about maybe doing a mash out decoction, but the other steps in the regular direct-fired recirculated mash tun.

Thanks

TD

TrickyDick said:

Hmmm.
anyway, I'm thinking and thinking about it. what kind of step mash schedule would you suggest for a traditional dopplebock style? I'm thinking a middle of the road 1.5 qts/lb thickness to the mash. With the dark malts, an acid rest probably useless. A protein rest might serve as a dough-in rest temp then immediately heat to saccharification temps. Any recommended sacc temps for a dopplebock? Sorry to hijack..

TD

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OK, start by thinking about what it is you want to accomplish with a step mash. First, why do you want to do a protein rest? with the highly modified malts around today, a step mash can actually reduce head retention and body...NOT what you want in a doppelbock. So, you need to think about what it is that a p rest might do for the beer. I haven't found step mashing to produce an appreciable difference in the beer, but when I do one I step from a beta rest to an alpha rest and avoid a p rest.

Denny said:

OK, start by thinking about what it is you want to accomplish with a step mash. First, why do you want to do a protein rest? with the highly modified malts around today, a step mash can actually reduce head retention and body...NOT what you want in a doppelbock. So, you need to think about what it is that a p rest might do for the beer. I haven't found step mashing to produce an appreciable difference in the beer, but when I do one I step from a beta rest to an alpha rest and avoid a p rest.

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Thanks!

I'd been reading over on braukaiser about how Kai does his mashes. I haven't read his dopplebock recipe in quite a while but will go over that tonight for sure.

Are you saying that you can't tell a difference in step mash produced beer as compared with single infusion or did you mean compared to decoction mashing?

TD

I've heard doing a 120 minute boil gets you in the ballpark of what a decoction mash would add to the beer. I recently did that with my Helles & it turned out great...lots of malt flavor. It almost tastes like Captain Crunch cereal in a glass with a crisp finish. IMO, a little kettle caramelization is similar to the flavor you get with a decoction.

I've only done 1 decoction on a hefeweizen & I had issues getting the sacc rest temp up to 152 F. I don't think I removed enough of the grain for boiling, so when I added it back, the temp only came to the mid-140's F...Still turned out fine though.

CTownBrewer said:

I've heard doing a 120 minute boil gets you in the ballpark of what a decoction mash would add to the beer. I recently did that with my Helles & it turned out great...lots of malt flavor. It almost tastes like Captain Crunch cereal in a glass with a crisp finish. IMO, a little kettle caramelization is similar to the flavor you get with a decoction.

I've only done 1 decoction on a hefeweizen & I had issues getting the sacc rest temp up to 152 F. I don't think I removed enough of the grain for boiling, so when I added it back, the temp only came to the mid-140's F...Still turned out fine though.

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Just did a quickie read of Kai's recipe, basically what I'm using for my first doppelbock, and he calls for an enhanced double decoction. This skips the protein rest (which Denny said above is not a good idea for this style), and goes from acid rest/dough in temp directly to sacc rest temp. The second decoction is for mash out. I can cheat on my temps with my Brutus-like setup direct fired mash tun with recirculated mash. I think I might also do a 120 boil just to ensure the DMS is gone, and maybe result in a smaller batch size with a little bigger OG. I think I'm going to go with the first decoction and see how that goes, and then decide if I want to just do a mash out by directly heating the recirculating mash rather than a decoction.

Temps for the mash on this are 158-164 (quite a range!) for the first decoction then hold it there until converted before raising to a boil. Then add back to main mash with a target sacch rest of 153°F. Funky. And impossible (if you let your beta enzymes completely denature) to do with a step mash: an alpha rest then a beta rest, well sort of.

TD

TrickyDick said:

Thanks!

I'd been reading over on braukaiser about how Kai does his mashes. I haven't read his dopplebock recipe in quite a while but will go over that tonight for sure.

Are you saying that you can't tell a difference in step mash produced beer as compared with single infusion or did you mean compared to decoction mashing?

TD

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Actually, I mean both step mash and decoction. I either detect no difference, or little enough difference to not make it worth the effort to me. IMO, the best reason to do either a step mash or decoction is becasue you want to do it, not because it will make noticeably better beer.