Two saison recipes: which should I brew?

I currently have a CAP in my chest freezer, and it will be there for a while. Thought this would be a great chance to try out a saison yeast at room temp.

I have two simple recipes (below). Let me know which one you like and what might be wrong with either. Planning on brewing one in about two weeks. Any tweak/advice is also greatly appreciated: mash temp, ferm temp (planning on just lettin'er go) etc.

1. American Farmhouse Ale:

Batch Size (fermenter): 5.10 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated FG: 1.008 SG
Estimated ABV: 5.9%
Estimated Color: 4.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 36.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 91.8 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Amt Name %/IBU

9.50 lbs Pilsner 95.0 %
0.50 lbs Caramunich (38.0 SRM) 5.0 %

0.50 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min 9.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min 4.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min 7.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 3.0 min 4.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min 0.0 IBUs

Yeast:
1.0 pkg Belle Saison Dry Yeast (similar to French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711))

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 10 lbs
----------------------------
Name Temperature Step Time
Mash In 150.0 F 75 min
Mash Out 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 3.06 gal water at 168.0 F



2. Black Saison

Batch Size (fermenter): 5.10 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated FG: 1.007 SG
Estimated ABV: 5.8%
Estimated Color: 23.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 35.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 94.9 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Amt Name %/IBU
4 lbs Brewers Malt 2-Row (1.8 SRM) 42.1 %
4 lbs Pilsner (1.7 SRM) 42.1 %
1 lbs Candi Sugar, Dark (180.0 SRM) 10.5 %
4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) 2.6 %
4.0 oz Carafa Special III (470.0 SRM) 2.6 %

2.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] FWH 36.0 IBUs

Yeast:
1.0 pkg Belle Saison Dry Yeast (similar to French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711))

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 9 lbs 8.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Temperature Step Time
Mash In 154.0 F 75 min
Mash Out 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 3.45 gal water at 168.0 F

bump

I like grain bill from 1st recipe but i would rather use EKG and candi sugar from 2nd with it, maybe reduce ibu a little (1.5oz for fwh and 0.5 for 10min or so)
I never used this yeast but i love 3711 so if its like that (but i would be surprised) then go for it

I like recipe #1 as well, but I recommend getting the IBU between 25-30. Have you thought about reducing your 2-row to 90% and adding some Wheat? Might help with color and head retention. I say go for it!! :rockin:

Taking Polboy, BrewerMikey, and Weezy's advice into consideration, I have recipe #3: Critique?

Batch Size (fermenter): 5.10 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated OG: 1.007 SG
Estimated ABV: 5.9%
Estimated Color: 16.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 29.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 94.8 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Amt Name %/IBU
7.00 lbs Pilsner (1.7 SRM) 73.7 %
0.50 lbs Caramunich (38.0 SRM) 5.3 %
1.00 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) 10.5 %
1.00 lbs Candi Sugar, Dark (180.0 SRM) 10.5 %

0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 10min 2.7 IBUs
1.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - First Wort Hop 26.8 IBUs

Yeast:
1.0 pkg Belle Saison Dry Yeast (similar to French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711))

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 9 lbs 8.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Temperature Step Time
Mash In 154.0 F 75 min
Mash Out 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 2.85 gal water at 168.0 F

Yes, I'd vote #3. Personally I'd up the wheat to 10%, and cut the pils to compensate. Personally wouldn't do so much Candi but it sounds interesting too! Give it a go and post some tasting notes!

recipe #3 looks like a winner. go for it.

DylanTO said:

(similar to French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711))

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have you read through https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/new-danstar-belle-saison-dry-yeast-359806/? the comparison to 3711 is a bit tenuous, based on others' experiences. i haven't tried it yet.

sweetcell said:

recipe #3 looks like a winner. go for it.



have you read through https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/new-danstar-belle-saison-dry-yeast-359806/? the comparison to 3711 is a bit tenuous, based on others' experiences. i haven't tried it yet.

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Yes, that thread was what put me onto this yeast. Based on the last mention of 3711 that I found there, it sounded like it was very similar in attenuation characteristic, if not flavour as well. Never having brewed a saison before, I don't really have any expectations flavour wise. I do, however, plan to let it ferment just as warm as it likes.

If you were using 3711 for this recipe, what temp would you mash at? Beersmith says that my FG should be around 1.007 mashing at 154, but people in that thread were seeing even lower FG. Should I even worry about it or just let'er rip?

I like #3 also. Looks good.

I have used Belle Saison and it does seem closer to 3711 than to 3724. It finished low (1.002) but I mashed low. I started it at 65 and then slowly ramped it up over the course of a few days to 82. I just tasted the first one from that batch the other day and it was nice. I ahve a few more bottles in the fridge and am going to try one or two later tonight. My initial impression was that is was slightly more spicy than 3711 and a little less citrus. I will take some more notes tonight.


I am liking the idea of having a dry saison yeast available. I like the idea of being able to keep some around for spontanious brew days, so I don't have to plan ahead and make a starter. I just did another batch using it and it has been 2 weeks so I am about to take a gravity reading soon.

As far as mash temps go, I like my saisons dry so I usually mash on the low side. Brew software always underestimates just how low some of these yeasts will go. But I seem to always finish in the 1.000-1.004 range.

This forum is awesome!

I'll let you all know how it turns out.

I mashed my current 3711 saison at 156 and it still made it to 1.004 after 7 days. If you are using software just change the attenuation to 90% to get a more accurate FG.

tagz said:

I mashed my current 3711 saison at 156 and it still made it to 1.004 after 7 days. If you are using software just change the attenuation to 90% to get a more accurate FG.

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Great idea!

A low FG will be fine; dry saisons are all the rage (thinking of all the Brett finished saisons out there which finish very dry in the bottle). Personally wouldn't want it finishing so low. If I was using that yeast I'd mash on the high side to get FG up a little. But it's all in what you want. I prefer a moderately sweet saison (actually, I best like low grav semi-sweet table beer versions that let the yeast do the talking). It's all in what you want out of it.

Great point Weezy. To toss in another variation, I only have access to dry Fermentis yeasts. As a result I used T-58 and did my beta rest in a recent batch at 149 for 45 mins then did an alpha at 156 for 20 mins. I pitched the T-58 at 74. The temp rose to 78 for the first two days then sat at 72 for the next 14 days until bottling day. The aroma from Primary on bottling day was fruity/honey and the taste was dry, actually seemed a little on the watery side to me, but maybe that is becuase I have never tasted a Saison before. My OG was 1.055 and FG 1.009
I think the next time I will try mashing at a higher temp to gauge the change in sweentness.
- Let us know how it comes out.

Polboy said:

I like grain bill from 1st recipe but i would rather use EKG and candi sugar from 2nd with it, maybe reduce ibu a little (1.5oz for fwh and 0.5 for 10min or so)
I never used this yeast but i love 3711 so if its like that (but i would be surprised) then go for it

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Do you think the 180SRM candi sugar will compete with the hops or that it'll work? I had a bad experience with dark crystal malt in an ipa recently and am now a little gun-shy. I could go 90 or 45 SRM instead.

Anyone else have an opinion on this?

DylanTO said:

Do you think the 180SRM candi sugar will compete with the hops or that it'll work? I had a bad experience with dark crystal malt in an ipa recently and am now a little gun-shy. I could go 90 or 45 SRM instead.

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put your fears aside: candi sugar and dark crystal malt are completely unrelated. there is no malt (of any color) in candi sugar.

for a saison i'd go with a lighter candi like the 90 or the 45. the 180 is very intense in its caramel/fig/coffee/etc flavors. i wouldn't worry about competing with the hops, i'd worry about competing with the yeast flavors. no point in using saison yeast if you're just going to plow it under with 180.

DylanTO said:

Do you think the 180SRM candi sugar will compete with the hops or that it'll work? I had a bad experience with dark crystal malt in an ipa recently and am now a little gun-shy. I could go 90 or 45 SRM instead.

Anyone else have an opinion on this?

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For saisons i use plain table sugar and i add it directly in to the boiling kettle 10-15min before the end. I think adding 180 candi would make it out of style but it could be very good and interesting so if you want to sent this beer for competition add plain sugar instead but if you like caramel, toffee, prunes ect flavors in your beer then go with 180, i feel that it could make beer that is a little bit a crossover of saison and belgian dubbel, damn now i want to make beer similar to that, i would just bump gravity to mid 1.070 range

That's a good point. The dark Candi is leaving the Saison category and entering into Belgian stronger ale styles. Nothing wrong with that. Its just not traditional Saison recipe.

Ok, I'm glad to hear that the 180 won't give dark crystal malt type flavours. I will give this experiment a try and report back.

Polboy, my general preference would also be to bump up the OG, but I am trying to get a pipeline of new beer going that will be ready sooner rather than later, meaning all session-strength. I am just learning the ins and outs of ingredients and really want to get on the fast track to being able to intuitively formulate more complex and/or experimental recipes.

sweetcell said:

put your fears aside: candi sugar and dark crystal malt are completely unrelated. there is no malt (of any color) in candi sugar.

for a saison i'd go with a lighter candi like the 90 or the 45. the 180 is very intense in its caramel/fig/coffee/etc flavors. i wouldn't worry about competing with the hops, i'd worry about competing with the yeast flavors. no point in using saison yeast if you're just going to plow it under with 180.

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sweetcell, this brings up a point I've been wondering about. How do saison yeasts differ in flavour from a yeast that you would normally use in something like a dubbel? Is it that the saison yeast flavours are more delicate and easily overpowered, or is it that they are so powerful that they would clash with the intense flavours of the 180?

DylanTO said:

sweetcell, this brings up a point I've been wondering about. How do saison yeasts differ in flavour from a yeast that you would normally use in something like a dubbel? Is it that the saison yeast flavours are more delicate and easily overpowered, or is it that they are so powerful that they would clash with the intense flavours of the 180?

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saison yeast throw off some unique fruity esters that are pretty powerful. so yes, i think they could clash. sometime intense + intense is awesome, other times it's just too much. think of a great hoppy IPA - you can add oak and all sorts of other flavors, and sometimes they can be nice, but for me they detract from the main focus of the style: pure, unadulterated hops.

i'm probably going to slaughter this analogy, but someone once compared too many flavors to using too many paint colors at the same time... eventually you just get brown, which isn't very interesting.

on the other hand experimentation and going over the edge is what homebrewing is all about. if you think the combo might be interesting, then go for it.

Being new to saisons, not to mention homebrewing in general, I decided to play it safe and used organic table sugar instead of the 180SRM candi syrup. I am going to use the syrup to brew a more traditional dubbel in the near future.
The batch (using recipe #4 below) is in the fermenter, happily bubbling away. I pitched at about 68' and let it free rise to 79' for a day. I now have a space heater going to hopefully get it into the upper 80s. I'll post back with more results.

Recipe #4 (as brewed, with measured numbers where possible):

Batch Size (fermenter): 5.30 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated FG: 1.005 SG
Estimated ABV: 6.3%
Estimated Color: 5.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 29.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.90 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 95.9 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Amt Name %/IBU
7.00 lbs Pilsner (1.7 SRM) 73.7 %
0.50 lbs Caramunich (38.0 SRM) 5.3 %
1.00 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) 10.5 %
1.00 lbs Sugar, Table (PC Organic) (~6.0 SRM) 10.5 %

0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.20 %] - Boil 10min 2.8 IBUs
1.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.20 %] - First Wort Hop 26.9 IBUs

Yeast:
1.0 pkg Belle Saison Dry Yeast (similar to French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711))

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 9 lbs 8.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Temperature Step Time
Mash In 157.0 F 75 min
Mash Out 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 3.85 gal water at 168.0 F

I think you're going to be happy!

this is my kind of saison and it will be excellent if yeast strain is like 3711, i also like to add rye to grist like that for extra "spicy" flavors and another spin i like in saisons is little bit of C hop in last 10-0min. If you will like your saisons you can try rye and "citrusy from hops" version next time

Question for you saison veterans:

I am fermenting nice and warm to try to get as much flavour from the yeast as possible. For an American ale, I would normally leave it in primary for another week or two after FG is reached, in order to let the yeast clean up.
Would that be a mistake with a saison like this? Will I lose the desirable esters?

DylanTO said:

Would that be a mistake with a saison like this? Will I lose the desirable esters?

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nope. esters aren't one of the by-products that the yeast clean up. follow the same schedule as your american farmhouse.

sweetcell said:

nope. esters aren't one of the by-products that the yeast clean up. follow the same schedule as your american farmhouse.

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Awesome, thanks!

Quick update: Belle Saison is pretty eager.
Already dipped under beersmith's target FG. It's sitting at 1.004.

im tempted, by this thread, to do split batch and use dry bell and 3711 side by side next weekend but i have a hard time to find belle saison locally

DylanTO said:

Quick update: Belle Saison is pretty eager.
Already dipped under beersmith's target FG. It's sitting at 1.004.

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hmm. it looks like the previous reports/reviews were accurate. It's an aggressive strain. Let us know what the yeast flavor profile ends up like.

Weezy said:

hmm. it looks like the previous reports/reviews were accurate. It's an aggressive strain. Let us know what the yeast flavor profile ends up like.

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Yes it is an agressive bugger. I have used it three times. Two have come in at 1.002 and the third is still in the fermenter but I expect the same. It seems to be pretty close to 3711. A little more spice ( pepper flavor) and a little less citrus than 3711, But pretty close.

DylanTO you should have a nice saison.

Just drinking a Saison Dupont for the first time. Very tasty. I detect a little DMS, presumably from the pilsner malt. If I'd known I might have gone with a 60min boil instead of 90. Do you guys usually shoot for a little DMS character in your saison?

DylanTO said:

Just drinking a Saison Dupont for the first time. Very tasty. I detect a little DMS, presumably from the pilsner malt. If I'd known I might have gone with a 60min boil instead of 90. Do you guys usually shoot for a little DMS character in your saison?

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are you sure you're tasting DMS? i've had dupont many times and i've gotten any. maybe you got a bad batch?

DMS is not part of the style and you don't want to add any. stay with the 90 min boil!