How do you convert extract recipe to partial mash?

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BansheeRider

BansheeRider

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I am looking to move up to partial mash before attempting BIAB. I noticed that there are not many recipes on Northern Brewer or Midwest Supplies website for partial mash. How do you convert any extract recipe into partial mash? I'm assuming the only thing that needs to be converted is the extract to grain. The specialty grains would stay the same correct?
 
Any specialty grains that can be steeped,along with crystal/caramel grains can stay. As well as color grains. The 2-row (base) grains must be converted to extract in order to steep the remaining grains & add the base grains as extract.
 
BansheeRider said:
I am looking to move up to partial mash before attempting BIAB. I noticed that there are not many recipes on Northern Brewer or Midwest Supplies website for partial mash. How do you convert any extract recipe into partial mash? I'm assuming the only thing that needs to be converted is the extract to grain. The specialty grains would stay the same correct?
Click to expand...

Yep, you got it!

Generally, using US 2-row in the amount of 1 pound for every .6 pound of light DME would be the conversion. For LME, 1 pound of grain would replace .75 pound of pale LME.

For example, using this recipe:
6 pounds light DME
1 pound crystal 60L

you could do this:
10 pounds US 2 row
1 pound crystal 60L

Or this:
5 pounds two-row
3 pounds DME
1 pound crystal 60L

or this:
3 pounds two-row
1 pound 60L
5.25 pounds pale LME

And so on.
 
unionrdr said:
Any specialty grains that can be steeped,along with crystal/caramel grains can stay. As well as color grains. The 2-row (base) grains must be converted to extract in order to steep the remaining grains & add the base grains as extract.
Click to expand...

Right, I understand. But for a recipe that calls for 6LB of LME how would I convert that to 3LB LME and the rest "base" grains? The "base" grains can be crushed and added to the steeping grains. Most steeping grains are steeped for 30 min, but when mixed with "base" grains I'm assuming an extra 30 min won't hurt the steeping grains.
 
Here's a chart that might clear things up; http://www.jaysbrewing.com/2011/11/17/lazy-chart-for-converting-dme-lme-grain/
I add the specialty/crystal/color,etc grains to the base grain for the 1 hour mash. I was just stating as well which grains can be steeped if you aren't doing a partial mash just for info's sake. Since the partial mash for me is 50% of the fermentables,I use that for all hop additions,saving the extract for flame out.
 
BansheeRider said:
Right, I understand. But for a recipe that calls for 6LB of LME how would I convert that to 3LB LME and the rest "base" grains? The "base" grains can be crushed and added to the steeping grains. Most steeping grains are steeped for 30 min, but when mixed with "base" grains I'm assuming an extra 30 min won't hurt the steeping grains.
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Right. You mash the steeping grains and the base grains (usually two-row) together. Holding it at 150-155 for 60 minutes in a prescribed amount of water (generally about 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain) is a mash and will allow conversion.

One other thing I forgot to mention. When mashing, you need to have at least 1 pound of base grain for every "other" grain. For example, say you have a pound of flaked corn and a pound of crystal malt. You're going to need to use at least 2 pounds of base malt in the mash. That ensures conversion, without doing all the math.
 
Thanks for the chart, that helps since I am horrible with math. I am still confused with why I need to add more base grains with specialty grains. I thought 2 row grains only substituted extract.
 
BansheeRider said:
Thanks for the chart, that helps since I am horrible with math. I am still confused with why I need to add more base grains with specialty grains. I thought 2 row grains only substituted extract.
Click to expand...

Well, remember the point of the mash! It's to get fermentable sugars out of grain. For that to happen, the enzymes have to change the starch in the grain to sugar (maltose). It's an enzymatic reaction.

One of the advantages to a PM instead of extract is the ability to use grains that you can't steep- flaked corn, oats, Munich malt, etc. Things like corn and oats and flaked barley don't have enzymes that can activate, but base malt does. The "excess" amount of enzymes in base malt mean that it can convert other grains. If you don't use enough base malt, it won't convert. By using at least as much base malt as specialty grains, you ensure that you won't have a big mess of starch instead of sugar!
 
Yooper said:
Well, remember the point of the mash! It's to get fermentable sugars out of grain. For that to happen, the enzymes have to change the starch in the grain to sugar (maltose). It's an enzymatic reaction.

One of the advantages to a PM instead of extract is the ability to use grains that you can't steep- flaked corn, oats, Munich malt, etc. Things like corn and oats and flaked barley don't have enzymes that can activate, but base malt does. The "excess" amount of enzymes in base malt mean that it can convert other grains. If you don't use enough base malt, it won't convert. By using at least as much base malt as specialty grains, you ensure that you won't have a big mess of starch instead of sugar!
Click to expand...

Ok so example.....

3lbs LME and 1lb crystal = 5lb of 2 row?

3lbs of LME converts to 4lbs of 2 row but because I also have a pound of crystal I add one more pound of 2 row making it 5lbs of 2 row grain?
 
Yooper said:
No. Specialty grains are separate. You don't sub crystal for base malt.
Click to expand...

Ok, got it. Does 2 row grain substitute for all LME? If the recipe has gold LME or dark LME do I use 2 row grain regardless or are there seperate grains for color and flavor?
 
BansheeRider said:
Ok, got it. Does 2 row grain substitute for all LME? If the recipe has gold LME or dark LME do I use 2 row grain regardless or are there seperate grains for color and flavor?
Click to expand...

Well, that's where it gets tricky, and why I've always disliked dark and amber extract. Dark and amber extract has other stuff in it- like crystal malt or Munich malt or who knows what, as the manufacturer's don't say.

It means that using it in an extract beer is a guess, as you don't know what's in it. I always suggest using light DME or LME for all beers, and using specialty grains to get color and flavor, just as all-grain brewers do. It's not like AG brewers have dark and light two-row- they use a base malt and then add the specialty grains for each beer style. So trying to convert a recipe that uses dark extract would be a WAG for sure.
 
Yooper said:
Well, that's where it gets tricky, and why I've always disliked dark and amber extract. Dark and amber extract has other stuff in it- like crystal malt or Munich malt or who knows what, as the manufacturer's don't say.

It means that using it in an extract beer is a guess, as you don't know what's in it. I always suggest using light DME or LME for all beers, and using specialty grains to get color and flavor, just as all-grain brewers do. It's not like AG brewers have dark and light two-row- they use a base malt and then add the specialty grains for each beer style. So trying to convert a recipe that uses dark extract would be a WAG for sure.
Click to expand...

So do you have to alter the amount of specialty grains in order to achieve the proper color and flavor of that style beer? If I was to cut the amount of dark extract and use pale 2 row malt the color and flavor would be off for that style of beer. How does one go about preventing this when converting extract to PM?
 
BansheeRider said:
So do you have to alter the amount of specialty grains in order to achieve the proper color and flavor of that style beer? If I was to cut the amount of dark extract and use pale 2 row malt the color and flavor would be off for that style of beer. How does one go about preventing this when converting extract to PM?
Click to expand...

I have no idea. How many brews do you want to convert that use amber or dark extract?
 
BansheeRider said:
So do you have to alter the amount of specialty grains in order to achieve the proper color and flavor of that style beer? If I was to cut the amount of dark extract and use pale 2 row malt the color and flavor would be off for that style of beer. How does one go about preventing this when converting extract to PM?
Click to expand...

As Yooper points out that is the problem with dark and amber extracts - you kind of have to guess to convert back to grain. For example Briess dark DME has black malt, crystal 60, and munich, but you don't know percentages.

When I was doing partial mash I always found it much easier to convert an all grain recipe rather than an extract. You keep the whole specialty grain bill and just convert whatever base you can't fit back to extract. There's tons of all grain recipes not only on NB and Midwest sites but also in the recipe database.
 
Skip all that crap and go directly to biab. You arent going to benefit much from it. Ag boil in a bag is as easy as it gets when it comes to homebrew. I was intimidated at first, now i want to kick people in the shins for making it sound so hard.
 
chickypad said:
As Yooper points out that is the problem with dark and amber extracts - you kind of have to guess to convert back to grain. For example Briess dark DME has black malt, crystal 60, and munich, but you don't know percentages.

When I was doing partial mash I always found it much easier to convert an all grain recipe rather than an extract. You keep the whole specialty grain bill and just convert whatever base you can't fit back to extract. There's tons of all grain recipes not only on NB and Midwest sites but also in the recipe database.
Click to expand...

That makes perfect sense. I may do this rather than the other way around.

retief said:
Skip all that crap and go directly to biab. You arent going to benefit much from it. Ag boil in a bag is as easy as it gets when it comes to homebrew. I was intimidated at first, now i want to kick people in the shins for making it sound so hard.
Click to expand...

I would but I do partial boils. A full size kettle is not in my budget right now.
 
Partial boil partial mash BIAB has been working fine for me the last 5 brews.
I wind up with 3.5 gallons boil volume. I top off in the fermenter to recipe volume.
 
unionrdr said:
Partial boil partial mash BIAB has been working fine for me the last 5 brews.
I wind up with 3.5 gallons boil volume. I top off in the fermenter to recipe volume.
Click to expand...

If this works I will skip PM and go straight to all grain. How would I do BIAB in my 5gal kettle?
 
I bought a turkey fryer at home depot for $40. It came with a pot big enough to boil 5 gallon batches. If you can afford do do that, its a cheap way to get what you need. Works great for me.
 
retief said:
I bought a turkey fryer at home depot for $40. It came with a pot big enough to boil 5 gallon batches. If you can afford do do that, its a cheap way to get what you need. Works great for me.
Click to expand...

Thanks but not going to happen right now. I just bought a 2L flask, stir plate, and wort chiller. The wife is not too happy right now :cross:
 
BansheeRider said:
If this works I will skip PM and go straight to all grain. How would I do BIAB in my 5gal kettle?
Click to expand...

Sounds like union is still doing partial mash, just mashing in a bag. So still adding extract and topping off at the end.

You can do a partial boil all grain batch, in this thread Revvy outlines his technique. You basically use the grainbill for an entire 5 gallon batch but mash as if you're doing 2.5 gallon, ending up with a very high gravity wort that you top off after the boil. Now whether you could fit this grainbill with BIAB and get reasonable efficiency I don't know. You would probably have to sparge.

You might be better off doing regular partial mash/partial boil until you get your process down or until you get a bigger pot.
 
Yeah,with a 5 gallon SS BK,I do partial boil,partial mash biab. I mash 5-6lbs of grains in 2 gallons of water,sparging with 1.5 gallons. I get a 3.5 gallon partial boil this way. I usually boil off about 1/2G,topping off to 5 gallons in the fermenter.
 
unionrdr said:
Yeah,with a 5 gallon SS BK,I do partial boil,partial mash biab. I mash 5-6lbs of grains in 2 gallons of water,sparging with 1.5 gallons. I get a 3.5 gallon partial boil this way. I usually boil off about 1/2G,topping off to 5 gallons in the fermenter.
Click to expand...

When do you add the extract?
 
Also, the following link is what I used when I started moving from all extract to PM and had a hard time with AG recipes. It gives a good summary of what to do. It seems a little dated and reads like a textbook, but the idea is presented pretty clearly and there are examples that you can work out (it really is just like a textbook).

http://home.roadrunner.com/~brewbeer/extract/pres.pdf
 
unionrdr said:
Oops. I forgot to mention I add it at flameout. Keeps color lighter & flavor cleaner. I've been using plain DME lately,but you can use LME as well.
Click to expand...

Reviving an old thread I started. Unionrdr......I am finally going to do a PM with my next batch. I will start cheap like a cream ale or something, nothing too complex. I wanted to ask you what your method is for sparging and rinsing the grain? Do you use a colander over your BK or use a separate pot? I know you said you use a separate pot for 1.5 gal of sparge water. Also what temp is your sparge water? For the BIAB I plan on using a 5 gal paint strainer bag from home depot. Is using a false bottom necessary? My pot will not be on the flame. It will just have about 2.5 gal of water at 150-155 degrees. Also how much heat will I loose when I add the grain? Should I heat the strike water to about 165 degrees before adding the grain?
 
You can expect to lose about ten degrees when you add the grains to the liquid. Also, yes a colander works well. And finally, for the four or so batches I did before moving from biab you don't need a false bottom, even with the pot being on the burner.

==>edit
Sparge water is 165-170 degrees
 
BansheeRider said:
Reviving an old thread I started. Unionrdr......I am finally going to do a PM with my next batch. I will start cheap like a cream ale or something, nothing too complex. I wanted to ask you what your method is for sparging and rinsing the grain? Do you use a colander over your BK or use a separate pot? I know you said you use a separate pot for 1.5 gal of sparge water. Also what temp is your sparge water? For the BIAB I plan on using a 5 gal paint strainer bag from home depot. Is using a false bottom necessary? My pot will not be on the flame. It will just have about 2.5 gal of water at 150-155 degrees. Also how much heat will I loose when I add the grain? Should I heat the strike water to about 165 degrees before adding the grain?
Click to expand...

I heat 2 gallons of local spring water on the stove to about 150F for 5-6lbs of grain. I stir in the crushed grains quickly,so as to break up any dough balls & evenly wet them. I have a floating thermometer strung up on one of the hadles in the mash. When it comes to 152-155F,cover & wrap up in my insulated winter hunting coat for the one hour mash. I use a smaller kettle to heat the 1.5 gallons of sparge water to 165-168F. After the mash,I pull the grain bag (paint strainer bag),& put in a SS collander on top of the BK/MT to drain. Then sparge slowly to get my boil volume of 3.5 gallons.
Since the grains make up some 50% of the fermentables,I use that for all hop additions. Then add a 3lb bag of plain light DME at flame out. Stir in well to dissolve,cover & steep for a couple minutes to pasteurize. Since it's still near boiling hot,& pasteurization happens at about 160F,flame out additions have workes great for me.:mug:
 
This is exactly what I would do. Couple additions: there are calculators available online to determine strike water temp depending on volume of water, lbs of grain, and grain temp. Every time I use one, it over predicts the temp I need and after stirring my mash temp is always higher than my target by several degrees. I would personally HIGHLY recommend overshooting mash temp and stirring to reduce the temp than under shooting and frantically boiling some water to add. A couple minutes at the wrong temp isn't a huge deal for your mash (you aren't going to ruin anything), but it is WAAAAYY easier to cool it off than heat it up.

Also, wrapping your pot in something insulated works well. I have personally taken to setting my oven to the lowest setting (often 170f) and turning off before putting my pot in. Holds temp pretty well.

Finally, it is not necessary, but many people (including myself) have found increased efficiency by stirring once or twice during the mash - say once at 30 minutes or twice at 20 and 40 minutes. Again, this isn't necessary.
 
unionrdr said:
I heat 2 gallons of local spring water on the stove to about 150F for 5-6lbs of grain. I stir in the crushed grains quickly,so as to break up any dough balls & evenly wet them. I have a floating thermometer strung up on one of the hadles in the mash. When it comes to 152-155F,cover & wrap up in my insulated winter hunting coat for the one hour mash. I use a smaller kettle to heat the 1.5 gallons of sparge water to 165-168F. After the mash,I pull the grain bag (paint strainer bag),& put in a SS collander on top of the BK/MT to drain. Then sparge slowly to get my boil volume of 3.5 gallons.
Since the grains make up some 50% of the fermentables,I use that for all hop additions. Then add a 3lb bag of plain light DME at flame out. Stir in well to dissolve,cover & steep for a couple minutes to pasteurize. Since it's still near boiling hot,& pasteurization happens at about 160F,flame out additions have workes great for me.:mug:
Click to expand...

freisste said:
This is exactly what I would do. Couple additions: there are calculators available online to determine strike water temp depending on volume of water, lbs of grain, and grain temp. Every time I use one, it over predicts the temp I need and after stirring my mash temp is always higher than my target by several degrees. I would personally HIGHLY recommend overshooting mash temp and stirring to reduce the temp than under shooting and frantically boiling some water to add. A couple minutes at the wrong temp isn't a huge deal for your mash (you aren't going to ruin anything), but it is WAAAAYY easier to cool it off than heat it up.

Also, wrapping your pot in something insulated works well. I have personally taken to setting my oven to the lowest setting (often 170f) and turning off before putting my pot in. Holds temp pretty well.

Finally, it is not necessary, but many people (including myself) have found increased efficiency by stirring once or twice during the mash - say once at 30 minutes or twice at 20 and 40 minutes. Again, this isn't necessary.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much. This sounds so easy not sure why I started all extract. This will be cheaper too since I'm using more grain than extract.
 
I stir the grains into the mash water/bag when it hits 150F. I'm not frantically doing anything to raise the temp to mash temp. You'd be surprised how little time you have to stir out dough balls & evenly wet the grains before it hits 152-155F. In other words,the BK/MT is still on the heat till the grains are properly wetted & broken up. Then lid on & wrapped up. no need to stir during the mash if done properly at the beginning,ime. Sparge well though.:mug:
 

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