Lacto question

Alright, so i have tried to read every thread and blog post i can on brewing with lacto/berliner wiess, and finally felt confident to brew one up yesterday. All went well, i had mad a starter from my white labs vial of lacto d. about a week ago, cold crashed it for about 4 days and pitched it into my 100 degree wort yesterday afternoon. I wrapped it up in blankets/sleeping bags etc. to keep it warm and 18 hours later its still nice and toasty. The airlock is bubbling like crazy.

Here's my question. I was told by white labs that their strain of lacto is heterofermentative, so it is capable of producing alcohol and lactic acid. Since my airlock is going like crazy am i right to assume that at this stage i'm producing alcohol and not lactic acid? if that's the case when am i going to get the souring? It just seem like there is a huge variation in how long these beers take. Some people say they pitch lacto and then yeast a few days later and get awesome sourness in a few weeks, while others say huge starter of lacto, a week of that, then yeast, and it takes 6 months. I was planning on letting this ride out for 3 days then pitching the yeast, but at this rate, i can't imagine there will be too many sugars left for the yeast.

Any ideas?

All the airlock tells you is that it's producing co2. You're probably getting both lactic acid and alcohol, too. The only reliable ways to know when you want to add yeast are to check the ph (I use strips, which tend to read high - a meter would be better) or to taste the beer (cheeper and pretty reliable). Generally, souring before adding yeast is faster than souring after yeast. Are you planning on heating or boiling to kill lacto or just letting it go?

Took a gravity reading and its at ~1.025 and started at 1.040 I'm cooling it down now and gonna pitch yeast tonight. I might be able to grab a pH meter from work. I'm not going to boil to "lock in" the sourness. After I add the yeast ill keep it in primary for a week then rack to a keg for long term storage. I'd love to have it nice and tart for July 4th weekend.

I did a 100% WL Lacto fermented Berliner. Sadly despite not pitching any yeast, the result is only faintly tart. It smells like a lacto-y Berliner, but the taste is similar to an American wheat. I've heard similar complaints from several other people. Not sure what is wrong with their strain. I asked Chris White about it and he didn't have any ideas.

From what I've gathered on the subject, and going on my own experience, lacto produces lactic acid anaerobically but in the presence of oxygen the heterolactic will produce ethanol and co2. Yes, Saccharomyces also ferments ethanol anaerobically, but first it must take up a large amount of oxygen to carry it through the anaerobic stage. While I haven't done a Berliner, I have used Lactobacillus in various beers. During the lactic phase, prior to pitching sacc, I don't aerate. After inoculating (which I do by immersing raw grain into the wort), I cover the top of the wort with plastic wrap to block out oxygen. Try this with your next batch: brew, cool, do not aerate, pitch lacto, cover to block oxygen and allow it to run for a while. Afterwards pitch your yeast and let it ferment out.

cluckk said:

From what I've gathered on the subject, and going on my own experience, lacto produces lactic acid anaerobically but in the presence of oxygen the heterolactic will produce ethanol and co2.

Click to expand...

Do you have a source for this?

The reason air is usually excluded from a grain-sourced Lacto fermentation is to reduce the prevalence of unwanted aerobic microbes. I've never read any studies suggesting that limiting oxygen increases lactic acid production.

Sure,

First: The wiki page for Lactic Acid fermentation says, It is "an anaerobic fermentation reaction."

Second: in [ame="http://youtu.be/ohhXiKwYYsg"]Basic Brewing Video of 10-31-2012 episode on Berliner Weisse[/ame], the host James Spencer (at 3 minutes and 40 seconds), recommends blanketing the wort with CO2, after being inoculated with raw grain, "because Lactobacillus works anaerobically." A screen splash says, "You can also put plastic wrap directly onto the mash."

gregkeller said:

Alright, so i have tried to read every thread and blog post i can on brewing with lacto/berliner wiess, and finally felt confident to brew one up yesterday. All went well, i had mad a starter from my white labs vial of lacto d. about a week ago, cold crashed it for about 4 days and pitched it into my 100 degree wort yesterday afternoon. I wrapped it up in blankets/sleeping bags etc. to keep it warm and 18 hours later its still nice and toasty. The airlock is bubbling like crazy.

Here's my question. I was told by white labs that their strain of lacto is heterofermentative, so it is capable of producing alcohol and lactic acid. Since my airlock is going like crazy am i right to assume that at this stage i'm producing alcohol and not lactic acid? if that's the case when am i going to get the souring? It just seem like there is a huge variation in how long these beers take. Some people say they pitch lacto and then yeast a few days later and get awesome sourness in a few weeks, while others say huge starter of lacto, a week of that, then yeast, and it takes 6 months. I was planning on letting this ride out for 3 days then pitching the yeast, but at this rate, i can't imagine there will be too many sugars left for the yeast.

Any ideas?

Click to expand...

I just read this: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/06/100-lactobacillus-berliner-weisse.html

ME,,, when it his temps that are in the yeasts range I would cast the yeast....

cluckk said:

Sure,

First: The wiki page for Lactic Acid fermentation says, It is "an anaerobic fermentation reaction."

Second: in Basic Brewing Video of 10-31-2012 episode on Berliner Weisse, the host James Spencer (at 3 minutes and 40 seconds), recommends blanketing the wort with CO2, after being inoculated with raw grain, "because Lactobacillus works anaerobically." A screen splash says, "You can also put plastic wrap directly onto the mash."

Click to expand...

As I said above, the removal of oxygen is primarily for the detriment of the competing microbes, rather than the benefit for the Lactobacillus. If you've ever done a sour mash without good oxygen control, you'll recognize the smell of rotting garbage (simialr to waiting until the next day to empty your mash tun... yuck!)

It appears that Lactobacillus needs a small amount of oxygen ("All lactic acid producers are micro-aerophilic, that is they require small amounts of oxygen to function."), but that the primary lactic acid production pathway for homofermentabive strains under "Normal conditions required for this [glycolytic] pathway are excess sugar and limited oxygen." The phosphoketolase pathway used by heterofermentative strains doesn't require oxygen either though.

Source: http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e10.htm

Oddly Lactobacillus delbrueckii (sold by White Labs) is listed as homofermentabive, while the Wyeast L. brevis strain is listed as heterofermentative. In my experience the White Labs culture produces much more carbon dioxide than the Wyeast strain.

None of this really answers the original question though, I'm not sure what happens or what is produced when the various Lactobacillus strains are grown under aerobic conditions. With brewer's yeast for example we know that it respires when aerated, not producing alcohol, but under anaerobic conditions it ferments (resulting in much less energy production).

Anybody else?

Edit: From what I'm reading Lactobacillus is "aerotolerant" which means they "cannot use oxygen for growth, but tolerate the presence of it." Which supports what I originally thought, that oxygen really doesn't change what Lactobacillus does.

Thanks for the info.

So I am trying this this weekend.

I have an old Lacto and Brett from White labs and and two WLP630 Berliner Weisses.

My plan is to split the batch in two (11 Gallons), areate one and cast One of the WLP630s in it, the other I am not going to areate and I am going to cast the a WLP630, the Brettt, and the Lacto.

When they both have stopped bubbling I will combine them and let them age until any sulfur smell has gone (I assume this should be doen before kegging)...

Then we will see...

I've taken college microbiology and like to think of myself as a pretty sharp guy, but you guys are describing metabolic pathways far past my expertise. I'm interested in sours, but am a little intimidated by the depth of knowledge that seems to be required for producing quality beers. Is there an accepted path for producing good sours? In essence, from a very lowly hopped base beer, add X amount of Y on day Z style "instruction book" to produce a middle of the road sour from which to then experiment? I would be eternally grateful for a link to a website or book. . .

Thanks for sharing your expertise.

Edit: I'm on an all-grain system capable of 10 gallon batches, and am a moderately experienced brewer. I have worked to develop a solid process that is quite repeatable. Time for aging is not a factor, as I have plenty of equipment to start a sour pipeline as well as continue my non-sour beers.

Yankeepride15 said:

I've taken college microbiology and like to think of myself as a pretty sharp guy, but you guys are describing metabolic pathways far past my expertise. I'm interested in sours, but am a little intimidated by the depth of knowledge that seems to be required for producing quality beers. Is there an accepted path for producing good sours? In essence, from a very lowly hopped base beer, add X amount of Y on day Z style "instruction book" to produce a middle of the road sour from which to then experiment? I would be eternally grateful for a link to a website or book. . .

Thanks for sharing your expertise.

Edit: I'm on an all-grain system capable of 10 gallon batches, and am a moderately experienced brewer. I have worked to develop a solid process that is quite repeatable. Time for aging is not a factor, as I have plenty of equipment to start a sour pipeline as well as continue my non-sour beers.

Click to expand...

The little I know I think i picked uo from reading "Brewing with Wheat" by Stan Hieronymus... I think there is a section about brewing Berliner Weisse.

That and a bit of research on the web.

The one thing I think was critical was hop amounts and that there was a limit to how much Alpha Acids (how much hops) could be in the beer and expect the Lacto to perform....

Yankee,

That's what I was kind of looking for, but it doesn't seem to be out there on the interwebs. I've read people who say they pitched both the lacto and yeast together and get awesome sourness in a few weeks, others who say that they are pitching lacto early, keeping warm, then yeast and it's taking a while. I'm also reading the opposite of each of those. That's whats making me wonder if we really understand the metabolism of this beasty we call lacto.

I brewed a simple wort, only did mash hops and boiled for 15 minutes. Cooled to 110, pitched a decanted apple juice starter and wrapped up the fermenter in blankets and stuff. It was still warm to the touch 24 hours later, i pulled the blankets put it in my ferm fridge and once down to 65 pitched my yeast.

I have a feeling that there is something we can do with our method to make sure that the lacto is producing mainly lactic acid and not alcohol, but i'm not sure if it's an oxygen thing, a temp thing, or something else i've not thought of. Then the issue becomes, if it's producing lactic acid it's gonna eat sugars and we are gonna be way under on our alcohol predictions. With a beer that's only supposed to end up at 3% being off could be a big issue.

This is not an easy brew to figure out, and I hate to be outwitted by prokaryotes.

Yankeepride15 said:

I've taken college microbiology and like to think of myself as a pretty sharp guy, but you guys are describing metabolic pathways far past my expertise. I'm interested in sours, but am a little intimidated by the depth of knowledge that seems to be required for producing quality beers. Is there an accepted path for producing good sours? In essence, from a very lowly hopped base beer, add X amount of Y on day Z style "instruction book" to produce a middle of the road sour from which to then experiment? I would be eternally grateful for a link to a website or book. . .

Thanks for sharing your expertise.

Edit: I'm on an all-grain system capable of 10 gallon batches, and am a moderately experienced brewer. I have worked to develop a solid process that is quite repeatable. Time for aging is not a factor, as I have plenty of equipment to start a sour pipeline as well as continue my non-sour beers.

Click to expand...

Despite the nerdiness, there is no reason to be concerned. Brewing sours is actually pretty simple. I usually pitch everything together in primary, and rack when I get around to it.

Here are my general thoughts: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/11/brewing-sour-beer-at-home.html

Good luck!

Thanks to all who replied, I appreciate your help. I'll be trying this sour thing soon enough.

Yankeepride15 said:

I've taken college microbiology and like to think of myself as a pretty sharp guy, but you guys are describing metabolic pathways far past my expertise. I'm interested in sours, but am a little intimidated by the depth of knowledge that seems to be required for producing quality beers. Is there an accepted path for producing good sours? In essence, from a very lowly hopped base beer, add X amount of Y on day Z style "instruction book" to produce a middle of the road sour from which to then experiment? I would be eternally grateful for a link to a website or book. . .

Thanks for sharing your expertise.

Edit: I'm on an all-grain system capable of 10 gallon batches, and am a moderately experienced brewer. I have worked to develop a solid process that is quite repeatable. Time for aging is not a factor, as I have plenty of equipment to start a sour pipeline as well as continue my non-sour beers.

Click to expand...

Brewing sours, especially lacto sours, is fairly easy. Most lacto is gram-positive so just make sure you keep the IBUs under 25. I use lacto cultured from grain. As Oldsock said the WL lacto is pretty tame, have never tried wyeast though. I blend the soured portion with unsoured beer to get the right level. Wild lacto is extremely strong in my experience, which I prefer.

Brewing true sours is even easier, but you have to wait a long time.

There was a pretty good article in this month's Zymurgy covering Kentucky Common using a sour mash with WL lacto and about 1/4 the target mash volume. The author used acid malt to get into the right PH range for the lacto to thrive, and recommend pitching the pure culture directly into the sour mash. Supposedly 2 days was the sweet spot for the Kentucky common, and 3-4 days was good for the Berliner Weiss.

Once you hit your target sourness they recommend bringing the sour "starter" up to 185 to kill it, then throwing it in at the end of the big mash (so as not to screw up conversion of the starches).


I plan on trying that approach in a few week to see how it goes.

I brewed one in late July by pitching Wyeast lacto and keeping at 100 for 5 days and then pitching US-05 afterwards. Still basically no sourness to speak of. I talked to some local brewers who released a berliner this summer and they said they soured there's in the kettle. Normal mash, mash out, leave in the kettle for 2 days at 110 then boil and pitch yeast. I'm going to try this method next time.

WeaponTheyFear said:

I brewed one in late July by pitching Wyeast lacto and keeping at 100 for 5 days and then pitching US-05 afterwards. Still basically no sourness to speak of. I talked to some local brewers who released a berliner this summer and they said they soured there's in the kettle. Normal mash, mash out, leave in the kettle for 2 days at 110 then boil and pitch yeast. I'm going to try this method next time.

Click to expand...

How many hops did you use?