My IPAs taste like crap

And I can't figure out why. I've brewed half a dozen IPAs, trying to change things around and eliminate process issues and I just can't figure out what's going on. I've brewed a couple of stouts and they've come out fantastic.

I do all-grain 5 gallon batches. I use a 10 gallon igloo cooler for a mash tun. I'm meticulous about sanitation (never had an infection). I use starters from liquid yeast (Wyeast, WL) correctly sized for the beer. Except for one batch that was the victim of a broken racking cane, I'm careful about oxidation issues. That one tasted a little worse than the rest. Since I bought a thermapen, I've hit target mash temps to within a degree. The one I'm drinking now was mashed a little high - 154 - but that was pre-thermapen. Also, my notes on this particular batch are a little sparse because I was pretty

The taste is really hard to describe. There is a ton of hop aroma and flavor, but it's masked by the aroma and taste of something else that's not hops and not grain. It's really hard to describe it and I'm pretty horrible at describing tastes and aromas anyway. It is definitely not a pleasant flavor. The beer is drinkable (barely) but I don't like the idea of serving it to people. I would like a nice, clean hop flavor and aroma. Whatever this is, it comes close to masking the hops.

I thought it might be lack of proper minerals but I added 3g of MgSO4 and 7g of CaSO4 for the Racer 5 clone that I brewed almost 3 weeks ago. I sampled it today and it has the same lousy flavor and aroma.

I know this isn't much to go on, but I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

I'd be happy to answer any questions about process, ingredients, etc. I just need to get this figured out.

What yeast are you using to ferment these batches? Different strains?
Give us one of the recipes youve been using also.
Do you use any fining agents? (isinglas, irishmoss, whirfloc)
Bottle or Keg?

Im not to smart with water profile but if your stouts are great your water might have high alkalinity.
Also @ 3 weeks from grain you still have a VERY green (young) IPA
I usually wait (try to) atleast 2-3 weeks after bottling/kegging for samples.
You would be surprised how much more hop aroma/flavor you get when its propperly carbed.

Funny, I was told its impossible to screw up an IPA but my only attempt at one was bad. I wish I had more to tell you, but until I get mine straightened out, I've got nothing.

I'm drastically changing my hop schedule to see if that fixes my beer. Thinking of buying the ingredients tonight and trying this weekend.

Are your terrible IPA's your own recipe, someone elses, or a kit?

Do you take hydrometer readings for specific gravity? Also, do you use a carbon filter or buy spring water? Chlorine is nasty, but less so in an IPA because of masking of the hops.

In addition to the above requested info, read through this list of possible off flavors. It might help you better describe what your tasting.

Chloramine made mine taste twangy (??) until i started using campden then filtering. You don't know the mix of Chlorine/Chloramine in your water. It wasn't super noticeable until I did paler beers (read hoppy).

Easy Test: Brew one with Deer Park Water and add some gypsum to get your sulfates up and see how it turns out.

My guesses in no particular order (with info currently known):

1.) Water quality issue. Try using spring water in jugs or RO water and repeat one of those recent efforts to see if it clears up the problem. If you're already using one of those water types, nevermind.

2.) Fermentation temps uncontrolled, too high.

3.) Combo of 1 & 2.

What was your fermentation temps? I just had an American pale ale destroyed by a big spike in my temps. The brew usually has great hop flavor and aroma but the phenols produced completely wiped them out. Fruity esters can sometimes overshadow your hops but not nearly as bad as phenols, IME.

Ok I'll try and hit everyone's questions in one post.

I've tried several different strains, but mostly US-05. Also one or maybe two with WLP001.

The one I'm drinking now is a kit from Northern Brewer. http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/allgrain/AG-KiwiExpress.pdf

I've bought kits online. I've bought grain from the LHBS as well. I've followed recipes and one was a "leftover" IPA made with some grains and hops I had laying around from other batches. All had the same off-flavor.

I don't use any fining agents. I've cold crashed a couple to try and clear them because they've been coming out cloudy as well.

I keg. I built a keezer a couple months ago.

The batch that I just killed last night was brewed on 3/6 and kegged on 4/2. The last pint tasted just like the first. I don't think it's an aging issue.

I do take hydrometer readings. Pre-boil, post-boil, and post-fermentation. Some have finished lower than others but all are right where they should be or close to it.

I have been using tap water. The very last batch that I brewed (on 4/19) was brewed with purified water and I added brewing salts. It's too early to tell if it has the off-flavor or not.

I will look through the PDF of off-flavors. Very helpful, thank you.

Ferm temps - I thought this was it too. The first few were fermented in about a 68-70 degree room. Then I learned from HBT that's too warm. I killed two kegs at a party and the next batch went into the keezer set at 64*. Same result. My keezer is full again and I haven't gotten around to getting another chest freezer yet, so I've been doing the swamp cooler thing and it's keeping the temps down pretty good.

Thanks for all the great feedback so far.

Nvm - you posted before I did!

Darwin18 said:

You didn't mention ... if you're making a starter if you're using liquid yeast.

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In the first post. Yes I make starters.

edit: lol

Sounds like a water issue, notably alkalinity in the brewing water.

Can you make a really good kolsch or cream ale or other very light colored beer with great results, and it's just IPAs? Or all of your beers lighter than amber stricken with the same flaw?

It sounds like a water issue to me. I cannot brew lighter beers, or IPAs with my tap water. Lighter beers taste like horrible mineral water and IPAs have a masked flavor, almost like the hops are being restrained. I also had a harshness issue until i stated acidifying my sparge water, whether it is RO or tap.

Ok, it's gotta be the water then. The batch in the fermenter right now should tell me for sure.

Yeah, it shouldn't the US-05 at 64 deg. in a keezer. I use S-04 and US-05 almost exclusively and control temps in the 64-66 deg range with just a water bath, no flavor issues.

IMO, I'd dump the MgSO4. Calcium sulfate will give the hops a nice "pop" but I don't see the need for MgSO4 and is probably putting your sulfates over the top. Just a thought, but I agree on trying RO water or another water source first.

strambo said:

Yeah, it shouldn't the US-05 at 64 deg. in a keezer. I use S-04 and US-05 almost exclusively and control temps in the 64-66 deg range with just a water bath, no flavor issues.

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I hope not. I brewed a smoked porter on Saturday and pitched US-04. It's sitting in a 73* office in a water bath right now next to a couple of frozen water bottles. I used tap water on this batch because it's a dark beer.

scoundrel said:

IMO, I'd dump the MgSO4. Calcium sulfate will give the hops a nice "pop" but I don't see the need for MgSO4 and is probably putting your sulfates over the top. Just a thought, but I agree on trying RO water or another water source first.

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The problem with using just CaSO4 is that when I brew an IPA I need to get the sulfate level to 300-350 according to Palmer. The calcium level is supposed to be between 50 and 150 (Palmer again). If I use enough CaSO4 to get the correct amount of sulfate, then I am way over on the calcium side.

are you hitting your target gravity or is it low?

LovesIPA said:

The problem with using just CaSO4 is that when I brew an IPA I need to get the sulfate level to 300-350 according to Palmer. The calcium level is supposed to be between 50 and 150 (Palmer again). If I use enough CaSO4 to get the correct amount of sulfate, then I am way over on the calcium side.

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I haven't read his book in a long time but I suspect those numbers are assuming that the source water is either RO or stripped of minerals with a filter. I don't know what you're water is like but the numbers provided by John Palmer are general guidelines and may not apply to your water source.

For example, my water comes from the same Baltimore City water source used by Heavy Seas Brewery. Now I've always known that my water is generally soft, so I would use a lower amount of calcium chloride (50 ppm) when brewing IPA's But just to be sure, I emailed Heavy Seas and had a nice back and forth with the head brewer. He told me to drop the calcium chloride all together and it took my IPA's from good to excellent according to friends and neighbors.

Perhaps an RO system might be a good idea. That way you'll have a clean slate and can add your minerals according to Palmer's guidelines. I think Yooper posted one that she uses for around $50. Anyway good luck!

fizgig said:

are you hitting your target gravity or is it low?

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Beers finish around 1.010 to 1.017 or so.

scoundrel said:

I haven't read his book in a long time but I suspect those numbers are assuming that the source water is either RO or stripped of minerals with a filter. I don't know what you're water is like but the numbers provided by John Palmer are general guidelines and may not apply to your water source.

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What you're saying doesn't really apply to the topic of using CaSO4 vs. MgSO4.

If you can explain why I should use only CaSO4 and not MgSO4 and explain why the increased levels of calcium are OK and having no Mg at all is also OK then I would understand what you're saying a lot better.

scoundrel said:

For example, my water comes from the same Baltimore City water source used by Heavy Seas Brewery. Now I've always known that my water is generally soft, so I would use a lower amount of calcium chloride (50 ppm) when brewing IPA's But just to be sure, I emailed Heavy Seas and had a nice back and forth with the head brewer. He told me to drop the calcium chloride all together and it took my IPA's from good to excellent according to friends and neighbors.

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What does CaCl have to do with it? Too much chlorine (over 300 ppm) is not good either so I can see why you wouldn't want to add it to already chlorinated tap water. And I don't understand why you would use it for an IPA at all. IPA's need sulfates, not chlorine. Sounds like your brewer gave you good advice, if what I understand about water chemistry is right.

scoundrel said:

Perhaps an RO system might be a good idea. That way you'll have a clean slate and can add your minerals according to Palmer's guidelines. I think Yooper posted one that she uses for around $50. Anyway good luck!

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I found a very cheap source ($1.25/5 gal) for purified water that I'll be using for all my light beers from now on. I plan to add the correct amount of minerals to it to get the sulfates, calcium, and magnesium to where they should be.

For now, any stouts or porters than I brew will be with tap water because they seem to love the higher bicarbonate levels that my tap water probably has.

LovesIPA said:

Beers finish around 1.010 to 1.017 or so.

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I meant Original Gravity, if it's low you might have a bad crush and are getting some huskiness

LovesIPA said:

What does CaCl have to do with it? Too much chlorine (over 300 ppm) is not good either so I can see why you wouldn't want to add it to already chlorinated tap water. And I don't understand why you would use it for an IPA at all. IPA's need sulfates, not chlorine. Sounds like your brewer gave you good advice, if what I understand about water chemistry is right..

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I think you're confusing chloride with chlorine. Chlorine/chloramine can give a very bad off taste - like gpack I had this problem before starting to use campden and I also wonder if that is what you were tasting. Having relatively low sulfate might not let the hops "pop" but I'm not sure it would cause an overpowering off flavor.

I'd be a little careful overdoing it with the additions. When I first started manipulating water I did the same thing you are describing, adding salts shooting for sulfate levels in excess of 300 (my tap water is very low mineral content - almost RO water). It resulted in some weird metallic aftertaste. After listening to Palmer's podcasts on water I started looking more at the chloride/sulfate ratio rather than absolute levels. I get better results now on IPA's shooting for 175-200 range for sulfates but keeping the chloride/sulfate ratio around 0.5.

That's just my experience, you can probably find a lot more detailed/better info in the brewing science forum.

fizgig said:

I meant Original Gravity, if it's low you might have a bad crush and are getting some huskiness

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Aside from 3 batches I bought from a LHBS that has their mill set too wide (I added extract to make up for it), I've gotten 80% efficiency on my batches.

chickypad said:

I think you're confusing chloride with chlorine. Chlorine/chloramine can give a very bad off taste - like gpack I had this problem before starting to use campden and I also wonder if that is what you were tasting. Having relatively low sulfate might not let the hops "pop" but I'm not sure it would cause an overpowering off flavor.

I'd be a little careful overdoing it with the additions. When I first started manipulating water I did the same thing you are describing, adding salts shooting for sulfate levels in excess of 300 (my tap water is very low mineral content - almost RO water). It resulted in some weird metallic aftertaste. After listening to Palmer's podcasts on water I started looking more at the chloride/sulfate ratio rather than absolute levels. I get better results now on IPA's shooting for 175-200 range for sulfates but keeping the chloride/sulfate ratio around 0.5.

That's just my experience, you can probably find a lot more detailed/better info in the brewing science forum.

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This is very helpful, thank you. Yes I'm probably confusing chlorine with chloride.

The water podcasts on the brewing network are here if you're interested. They cleared things up a bit better for me than just the water section in How to Brew (still waiting on the Water book). I think I have a better understanding of the difference between using salts to adjust pH and using them to manipulate the flavor profile.

I find the EZ water calculator pretty good for predicting the actual mash pH, and it is easy to use without needing a lot of water knowledge. I've heard Bru'n water is quite good also.

LovesIPA said:

Beers finish around 1.010 to 1.017 or so.



What you're saying doesn't really apply to the topic of using CaSO4 vs. MgSO4.

If you can explain why I should use only CaSO4 and not MgSO4 and explain why the increased levels of calcium are OK and having no Mg at all is also OK then I would understand what you're saying a lot better.

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MgSO4 can give weird flavors. I've talked with a several pro brewers and all of them told me not to bother with it since it can provide "strange off flavors" if too much is added. CaSO4 will give you that bright hop flavor you're looking for. The only benefit I see is that MgSO4 is useful for yeast health but in small amounts. The yeast nutrient I use seems to make up for that.

It's worked well for me so far. Like I said before, I'm only suggesting you drop it.

LovesIPA said:

What does CaCl have to do with it? Too much chlorine (over 300 ppm) is not good either so I can see why you wouldn't want to add it to already chlorinated tap water. And I don't understand why you would use it for an IPA at all. IPA's need sulfates, not chlorine. Sounds like your brewer gave you good advice, if what I understand about water chemistry is right.

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Because it adds back calcium (Ca) loss in stripped down water. Chloride is not the same as Chlorine or Chloramine, which is undesirable and I remove with my filter and a campden tablet.

LovesIPA said:

I found a very cheap source ($1.25/5 gal) for purified water that I'll be using for all my light beers from now on. I plan to add the correct amount of minerals to it to get the sulfates, calcium, and magnesium to where they should be.

For now, any stouts or porters than I brew will be with tap water because they seem to love the higher bicarbonate levels that my tap water probably has.

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Sounds good as long as its not Primo water. They add back minerals which led to my friend brewing a couple of frustrating batches until we uncovered the problem.

Are you using the same keg and beer line? Maybe it's coming from one of them. I would completely disassemble my keg, including removing the post and poppets, and clean everything thoroughly. Same with the beer line and tap. Good luck.

Nope, it's Glacier water. The vending machine dispenses purified city water. I have no idea how effective they are, but I'll soon find out.

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it.

DirtyOldDuck said:

Are you using the same keg and beer line? Maybe it's coming from one of them. I would completely disassemble my keg, including removing the post and poppets, and clean everything thoroughly. Same with the beer line and tap. Good luck.

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Another good suggestion, but I have 8 kegs and 3 taps. Doesn't matter where it comes from. I am a cleaning Nazi in general, too.

LovesIPA said:

Nope, it's Glacier water. The vending machine dispenses purified city water. I have no idea how effective they are, but I'll soon find out.

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it.

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No problem buddy. I have have a feeling the next one will be a winner.

Just to give everyone an update on this. The purified water batches with brewing salts have come out GREAT. No more off-flavors! I just kegged batch #3 today made with purified water (while knocking back a couple of pints from batches #1 and #2) and I'm very happy with how my IPA's are coming out now.

Thanks for everyone's help!

Excellent news! Good for you.
I've been following this thread with interest -

thanks for the update!~

Definitely a water issue. Get water report and plug your numbers to BrunWater. I have to dilute my tap water 50% with RO and then add Gypsum, CaCl2 and lactic acid in various amounts depending on desired profile.

I do the KISS Method. I got a water filter (slow flow, not a whole house filter). Bought a level two filter and all my beers are great. Only 'chemical' is DAP and wyeast nutrient.

Crito said:

I do the KISS Method. I got a water filter (slow flow, not a whole house filter). Bought a level two filter and all my beers are great. Only 'chemical' is DAP and wyeast nutrient.

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Filtering water does not mean you have right proportion of minerals in there. Since I started using BrunWater I realized how much important water chemistry really is. Without water analysis you just guessing at best

LovesIPA said:

Just to give everyone an update on this. The purified water batches with brewing salts have come out GREAT. No more off-flavors! I just kegged batch #3 today made with purified water (while knocking back a couple of pints from batches #1 and #2) and I'm very happy with how my IPA's are coming out now.

Thanks for everyone's help!

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That's great news! Glad to hear it!

paraordnance said:

Filtering water does not mean you have right proportion of minerals in there. Since I started using BrunWater I realized how much important water chemistry really is. Without water analysis you just guessing at best

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Well. In my area, each season change means different water source. A filtered water still makes good beer. As long as the chlorimide is out. No major flaws will show up and have high drinkable beer. Competition wise, go R/O and build your own water profile. KISS method works. (For any beginners reading this)

Does anyone have a tried and true cocktail of additions for a 5 gallon batch of IPA that they would like to share? I use RO water, and use the bertus brewery method of water additions and mine still have a slight off flavor that I can't put my finger on either.

Been following this thread with great interest and will probably go back to purified drinking water for the next batch.

I could tell you what I added but if you mash with a different volume of water you won't be using the right numbers. The online version of the Palmer book has a good chapter on how to figure out how much to add. I only add MgSO4 (Epsom salt) and CaSO4 (gypsum). I think that's right, I'm not at my desk right now.

WDT said:

Does anyone have a tried and true cocktail of additions for a 5 gallon batch of IPA that they would like to share? I use RO water, and use the bertus brewery method of water additions and mine still have a slight off flavor that I can't put my finger on either.

Been following this thread with great interest and will probably go back to purified drinking water for the next batch.

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I normally don't use the sulfate (up to 300 ppm!) in Mosher's pale ale profile, but in the last hoppy APA I did I used 237 ppm or so.

For a really nice accentuation of the hops, that pale ale profile is highly recommended by brewing authorities. (not me- I'm NO water guru!)