Russian Imperial Stout

Hi! I'm going to brew this type of style in the next month!

this is the recipie:

Ricetta per stout, finals liters 20,0 (pre-boil liters 24,5)
efficienza 72%, bollitura 60 min.
OG 1,128; IBU: 100,4 (Tinseth); EBC: 124;
Malti:
4000 gr Pale Malt, Maris Otter, 1,038;
700 gr Chocolate Malt, 1,030;
700 gr Roasted Barley, 1,028;
400 gr Crystal 75L, 1,034;
1000 gr Peated, 1,038;
500 gr flaked barley, 1,033;
3000 gr Light, 1,037;
200 gr sugar Candy, Amber, 1,040;
Luppoli e altro:
14 gr Goldings, East Kent, 6,0 %a.a., 30 min, Kettle;
14 gr Goldings, East Kent, 6,0 %a.a., 10 min, Kettle;
100 gr Columbus (Tomahawk), 14,0 %a.a., 60 min, Kettle;
20 gr Chinook, 13,0 %a.a., 60 min, Kettle;
yeast:
Scotish Ale
Mash Steps:
50 °C 10 min
68 °C 80 min
78 °C 15 min

what do you think about? what i have to change?

Thanks You So much from Italy, and sorry for my english

There's some questions I have about your recipe. First off, I'm concerned with your 1000 grams (2.2 lbs) of peated malt. Have you ever brewed with Peated Malt? It is quite strong. If you want a touch of smokey flavor in this Russian Imperial stout, I recommend Rauch Malt instead. It's got a much better smoked flavor in my opinion, and you only need about half that for a 19L (5 Gallon) batch. Use 1 kilo of Peated Malt, and I promise you will have a smoke bomb.

Second—what's the flaked barley for? Usually, this is used as a substitute for Flaked Corn, if you didn't want that corn flavor or to add body to the beer. This Russian Imperial stout will have plenty of body without flaked corn. Simplify.

Third, why all the candi sugar? This is usually used as an adjunct to make a drier beer—usually when making a dubbel, trippel, belgian strong, etc. The roasted barley should add a bit of dryness to the beer.. I think that's all you need.

i have never used the peated malt, but i read that is not very strong :smack:! do you suggest me to use half kg? (1,1 lbs?)

i used flaked barley because i see that is used in a lot of RIS recipe! you say that it is better not to put it?

i used candi sugar only to correct og, i want start with 1120 and with a one liter starter i have to reach 1125 og point!

i changed the recipe with less peated and without sugar:

Ricetta per stout, final liters 20,0 (boil liters 24,5)
efficienza 72%, boil 60 min.
OG 1,129; IBU: 99,3; EBC: 120;
Malts:
4900 gr Pale Malt, Maris Otter, 1,038;
700 gr Chocolate Malt, 1,030;
700 gr Roasted Barley, 1,028;
400 gr Crystal 75L, 1,034;
500 gr Peated, 1,038;
500 gr Flaked barley, 1,033;
3000 gr Light, 1,037;
Hops:
14 gr Goldings, East Kent, 6,0 %a.a., 30 min, Kettle;
14 gr Goldings, East Kent, 6,0 %a.a., 10 min, Kettle;
100 gr Columbus (Tomahawk), 14,0 %a.a., 60 min, Kettle;
20 gr Chinook, 13,0 %a.a., 60 min, Kettle;
yeast:
Scotish Ale
Mash Steps:
50 °C 10 min
68 °C 80 min
78 °C 15 min

what do you think about?

I wouldn't use peated malt at all. Rauch Malt is much milder than Peated Malt and offers a superior flavor in my opinion. See threads like these:

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=88062

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=4782.5

I agree, ditch the peated malt all together. An oz or two can be really noticeable in 5 gallons, so if you use it, only use a tiny bit.

What is "Light" under your malt bill? Pale malt?

Otherwise, I suggest lowering or dropping the peat malt as well. If you want it, maybe try 50-100g at most. Flaked barley is generally used to increase body, unlike corn, which usually does the opposite. Keep it if you want, but with an OG at the level this recipe has, you're going to have plenty of body regardless. The protein rest isn't necessary, but probably won't hurt anything either. Your sacc mash temp is a little high - use it if you want a really thick beer, drop it down a couple degrees if you want better attenuation.

This is important. You're going to need more than a little 1L starter. Use a pitching rate calculator to get your ideal pitch rate. You're going to need a lot of yeast for this thing.

Agree strongly with Guld's last point. For yeast, I find it easier to make a standard gravity red, porter, or irish dry stout batch first. Either drop the RIS wort directly on top of that yeast cake, or wash and pitch 3-4 cups of yeast slurry.

Otherwise I would go with at least a 1 gallon starter. You don't want a 1.129 stalling out high.

thanks you so much for the help!

recipe changed!

Ricetta per stout, final liters 20,0 (boil liters 24,5)
efficienza 72%, boil 60 min.
OG 1,129; IBU: 99,3; EBC: 120;
Malts:
5300 gr Pale Malt, Maris Otter, 1,038;
700 gr Chocolate Malt, 1,030;
700 gr Roasted Barley, 1,028;
400 gr Crystal 75L, 1,034;
100 gr Peated, 1,038;
500 gr Flaked barley, 1,033;
3000 gr Light, 1,037;
Hops:
14 gr Goldings, East Kent, 6,0 %a.a., 30 min, Kettle;
14 gr Goldings, East Kent, 6,0 %a.a., 10 min, Kettle;
100 gr Columbus (Tomahawk), 14,0 %a.a., 60 min, Kettle;
20 gr Chinook, 13,0 %a.a., 60 min, Kettle;
yeast:
Scotish Ale
Mash Steps:
50 °C 10 min
67 °C 80 min
78 °C 15 min

it's now ok? What should I change?

are the ibu ok?

@guldtuborg: light is dme liquid extract!

I'm going to make a three steps starter (on the stir plate)! 1 liter with og 1050, after add another liter at 1060, cold crash, add to the compacted yeast another one liter with 1080 og points.

after the oxigenation i'am going to put in the wort all the last liter
I hope I made ​​it clear

what do you think about?


edit: @solbes: with the university i haven't got enought time to make two brew day in a short time

Again, I think you're over complicating things for yourself. No need for a multiple step starter. While a lab might be great at doing this, at home you increase risk of contamination every time you expose yeast to the outside or transfer it.

Your starters should always generally be 1.030-1.040 or so specific gravity. The reason is, you're trying to GROW healthy daughter yeast cells and increase the cell count. Trying to "acclimate" the yeast to the final wort you want to ferment is not the purpose of making starters. Yeast will actually be less healthy and "stressed" in a higher gravity wort because of factors like osmotic pressure, and the higher toxicity due to higher levels of alcohol. Think of it as: you're building an army to go and eat that maltose sugar. You don't want a bunch of beat up exhausted soldiers.

Use a pitching rate calculator like the famous Mr. Malty calculator: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

And start with 2 yeast packets if you have to, but no need to do a multiple step starter. Do you have a stir plate?

Ok! i have to make a 3 liters starter at 1040 and add to the wort only compacted yeast (crash cold in fridge)

i'd tried to use this calculator http://yeastcalc.com/ but it said that i had to make 3 step starter (og 1040) 2liters-2liters-1liters in order to have enought yeast!





What do you suggest me?

P.s. this is my homemade stirplate

I think the newest version of the recipe looks much improved. The more I think about it, the more I believe you're good with 100g or so of the peated malt. Yes, it can be strong stuff, but this beer is going to have a lot of strong players, and you don't want to have the smokiness get completely lost among everything else. So I think you're good there. Know, too, that peated malt comes in varying degrees of "peatedness," if that is a word. Get a feel for whether you have lightly, moderately, or heavily peated malt, and make adjustments based off that.

Are you using the Wyeast Scottish ale yeast? If so, do build up a big starter, and try to keep the fermentation temp rising a bit towards the tail end. You may also need to rouse it as it slows down. With a little encouragement, this yeast can ferment really big beers. I've pushed it to 14%. It's a solid choice and makes a great beer.

I can see how that calculator can be tricky since it doesn't seem to give you the option of adding additional packs of yeast. Try this one instead: http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/ or the one in my previous post above (Mr. Malty). It looks like you'll need to start with at least 3 yeast packs, and you can make a 2L starter with that and you should be fine. If you have a local homebrew shop, select the freshest yeast you can, because as you can see, of the 100 billion cells in your yeast pack manufactured 3/8/13, only about 60% are still alive/viable.

@ GuldTuborg: i put a little bit of peated malt in hot water and i try to drink it, it didn't look very strong! i think that European peated malt is very different from US peated malt!

@soviet: Ok! i'm going to buy two packs of yeast (on a web-site, i'll say to them to give me the two fresher) and put them in a 2liter starter! (putting in the wort only che compacted yeast)

and about the ibu? the range 80-100 is ok? is better a little bit less or more?

thanks you so much

Nico93 said:

@ GuldTuborg: i put a little bit of peated malt in hot water and i try to drink it, it didn't look very strong! i think that European peated malt is very different from US peated malt!

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Good on you for finding a way to figure out, for yourself, what's going to taste best to you. Adjust your recipe as you see fit from your perceived strength level of the peat.

Nico93 said:

and about the ibu? the range 80-100 is ok? is better a little bit less or more?

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I usually like a roughly 1:1 ratio of OG:IBU points for an RIS. If you plan to age, you could even increase that. That's pretty firm bitterness, but it usually balances the roast character well, and provides good aging potential. If you like a slightly sweeter stout, go lower on the IBUs. I would not recommend going under a 3:2 ratio.

Ricipe stout, final liters 20,0 (boil liters 24,5)
efficienza 72%, boil 60 min.
OG 1,127; IBU: 101,8; EBC: 122;
Malti:
4900 gr Pale Malt, Maris Otter, 1,038;
700 gr Chocolate Malt, 1,030;
700 gr Roasted Barley, 1,028;
500 gr Crystal 75L, 1,034;
200 gr Peated, 1,038;
500 gr flaked barley 1,033;
3000 gr Light dme liquid, 1,037;
hops:
15 gr Goldings, East Kent, 6,0 %a.a., 30 min, Kettle;
15 gr Goldings, East Kent, 6,0 %a.a., 10 min, Kettle;
100 gr Columbus (Tomahawk), 14,0 %a.a., 60 min, Kettle;
20 gr Chinook, 13,0 %a.a., 60 min, Kettle;
Bu/Gu:0,8
yeast:
Scotish Ale (two packs and 2 liters starter)
Mash Steps:
50 °C 10 min
68 °C 80 min
78 °C 15 min

i added a little bit of peated malt because after tasted it i think that 100 grams are ininfluent on the taste (i think that european peated malt is not so strong as US)

is that recipe ok? any suggestions?

another question:
when the fermentation is completed and i bottle the beer, i have to put some fresh yeast to make sure that carbony?
how much sugar for the priming? (g/l?)

That recipe looks good to me. I'd brew it as is. Plan on this taking a long time to condition and come around. I don't normally transfer to a secondary fermentor, but with RISs I do to bulk age, as they always drop a massive amount of trub over time, that just doesn't seem to happen with an extended primary.

Depending upon how long you bulk age it, you may or may not need to reyeast at bottling time. I'd consider it if you bulk age for over 3 months. Use a bottling carbonation calculator to figure out how much sugar you need to use. Tastybrew has one that's super easy to use. This ought to be perfect come the holiday season, but have what it takes to age for years. Good luck!

ok, i'll trasfer to the second fermentary after a week and leave it in the second fermenter for a month.

how many volumes of CO2 are needed about? I was thinking about 2.1? it's ok?

thanks you so much

Nico93 said:

ok, i'll trasfer to the second fermentary after a week

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That will almost certainly be too soon. If you don't want to make multiple gravity readings, give it 3 weeks or so to ensure it's done.

Perfectly! i'am going to make a report after the brewday!

thanks!

another question! the last one!

I decided to use the 'Wyeast 1728 Scottish ale but now I'm thinking if it is the most suitable:

which yeast is the best for this type of beer?

1728 | scottish ale
1028 | London Ale
1056 | American Ale
1762 | Belgian Abbey II
1084 | Irish Ale

I was thinking scottish ale, but i'd like to know your opinions

Thanks so much

Any of those should be fine for a big RIS. Since big beers can take more attention, choose the strain you have the most experience using.

Personally, I'd go with the Irish, Scottish, or American Ale. I would avoid the Abbey ale, as it will come out tasting like a Belgian Strong or Dubbel. The belgian strains produce the characteristic "phenolics" that taste like pepper, clove, nutmeg, and spices. While those things taste great with a clean fermentation—it won't taste like a Russian Imperial Stout.

@soviet: perfect, i'm using 1728 scottish Ale

To resolve the problem of pitch rate, i'll Made first a IPA in order to use the yeast formed by the IPA! Can I use 1728 to brew an IPA or it have a very different character?

You can certainly brew a good ipa with 1728. I believe Heretic Brewing uses it in their wonderful Evil Twin red ale.

I would advise you against, however, repitching a yeast made in a higher alcohol beer like an IPA (typically, IPAs are between 6-8%), for yeast health reasons. Yeast are much more strained in that sort of beer, than say, a small english ale (4-5%). Additionally, if you're going to re-pitch yeast, make it a like-kind repitch. By that I mean don't pitch yeast that are covered in hop resins from a super-hoppy beer and weakened by a toxic environment of high alchohol into a malty dark beer (though you could argue a RIS is pretty hoppy and bitter).

You could probably get away with making a session-ipa or just an american pale ale and repitching that yeast cake. Just make sure the hops from both batches blend together well, since there will definitely be residual hop flavors in the first batch that carry over into the second batch. Great questions!

Soviet said:

Personally, I'd go with the Irish, Scottish, or American Ale. I would avoid the Abbey ale, as it will come out tasting like a Belgian Strong or Dubbel. The belgian strains produce the characteristic "phenolics" that taste like pepper, clove, nutmeg, and spices. While those things taste great with a clean fermentation—it won't taste like a Russian Imperial Stout.

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In the contrary, I've used the Roch strain (1762) to brew an RIS twice now, with none of those flavor contributions. It's very mild for a Trappist strain, and most of what you'll get is a nice warming alcohol sensation and a very mild dark/stone fruit flavor (and some have reported a hint of rosewater, but I've never gotten that). Rather than taking away from the stout flavors, I found it to meld quite well with the large amount of black malt I typically use. Just pitch in the mid 60s, don't let it ride above the low 70s, and it's a great yeast for this application. Plus it ferments reliably well with high gravities and alcohol levels, both of which are concerns in an RIS fermentation.

...Or you could just ferment with a neutral strain that performs well at high gravities without the risk of phenolics, esters, or "rose water" flavors or whatever as a relatively newer brewer ought to. Especially considering we don't know if you have temperature control or not.

Of course the OP can. In fact, I stated that quite clearly above when I said all the strains would produce a great RIS. I also cautioned against letting the 1762 go above the low 70s, which doesn't take any fancy temp control, it just takes a basement that'll site around 65F for the next week or so.

If you want to caution OP against using the strain, that's fine, but don't make false statements along the way. The esters and phenols the Roch strain throws out at moderate temperatures are very mild for a Trappist yeast, and will be absolutely covered up by the level of roasted malt in any RIS. I know this because I've used it several times, spoken with others who have made RISs with it, and tasted their beers. If you have had a differing experience with this strain, I'd love to hear the details, but if you haven't used it in an RIS, I'm not sure how you can be so sure that it will taste "like a Belgian Strong or Dubbel." Now I certainly don't know everything, far from it, but my experience tells me quite the opposite. At any rate, it's something concrete.

OP, I like big stouts, and I've brewed a good number. I've also used all these yeasts in RISs before except 1084. Here are a few thoughts:

1728 is a great strain. It performs well at a wide range of temps, handles high gravity and alcohol well, and will laugh at your OG. It's starting to get a bit warm out, so expect some stone fruit esters at the higher end of its range. In high gravity worts, it really helps to increase the fermentation temp near the end. I brew when it's still cool out, and move it from a cold room to a warm one as fermentation dies down. If you don't so that, its high flocculation rate can make it stop a bit prematurely sometimes.

1056 is very easy to use and maintenance free, but doesn't do well in extreme temps like 1728. You don't really have to worry about raising the temps at the end, and/because it will take forever to drop. Racking to a "bright tank" is almost a necessity, unless you can crash cool. I'd recommend racking it and keeping it at the same temp, as it's always been super slow for me at the tail end (weeks 3-6 of fermentation usually see a 2-5 point drop in FG). Otherwise, it's worry free.

1028 is similar to 1056 in its performance across temperature ranges, but it drops faster. It still attenuates well, and generally quickly. It's fairly neutral, but leaves a distinctive character...kind of astringent or tannic, but in a way that I like. It doesn't need to be babied, which makes it a joy to use.

1762 I've already spoken about, and I haven't used 1084 in an RIS. I have used it in an old ale, and I loved the soft, complex esters I got from it. I don't know if that stuff would even be noticeable in an RIS. There are just so many other flavors competing for the attention of the drinker. I hope you find something helpful in here.

GuldTuborg said:

Of course the OP can.

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He can also make an RIS with a Saison yeast. It doesn't mean he ought to. It might even taste good—but it won't taste like a true-to-style RIS.

GuldTuborg said:

In fact, I stated that quite clearly above when I said all the strains would produce a great RIS.

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Yeah.... let's not argue about the 3 of 4 things we agree on.

GuldTuborg said:

I also cautioned against letting the 1762 go above the low 70s, which doesn't take any fancy temp control, it just takes a basement that'll site around 65F for the next week or so.

Click to expand...

Don't care...

GuldTuborg said:

If you want to caution OP against using the strain, that's fine, but don't make false statements along the way.

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Didn't do any such thing. I've brewed with the Abbey II, and I'm quite familiar with it's flavor profile, hence my recommendation against it. (Not to say it's not a great yeast—it's one of my gotos for belgian styles) You say it's mild, I say it's not. I just didn't think it was a good one to start with for our friend here for reasons I've described that you don't approve of. Let's just agree to disagree.

Soviet said:

He can also make an RIS with a Saison yeast. It doesn't mean he ought to. It might even taste good—but it won't taste like a true-to-style RIS.

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To the American or English versions? Styles are always a bit fluid, and some poorly defined. Besides, OP didn't state he wanted something square in the middle of the BJCP style description. Still, we're splitting hairs here.

Soviet said:

I've brewed with the Abbey II, and I'm quite familiar with its flavor profile, hence my recommendation against it.

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Fair enough, and I can respect that. In my defense, if I sounded harsh before, it was only because reasons for your arguments like this were not offered earlier on. That, and there's a trend of passing off all Belgian yeasts as the same around here, and all crazy phenolic, and I can get a bit excited when talking people down out of this false assumption.

Soviet said:

You say it's mild, I say it's not...Let's just agree to disagree.

Click to expand...

I can drink to that. My apologies again if I came off as harsh earlier...rough day at work, blah, blah...

Incidentally, on the topic of the RIS style, this is a good read. Apparently, not too long ago on England, fermentations ran up to 82F! Crazy stuff. I'm not sure I'd recommend this practice now, but it is interesting to see something of the historical perspective.

Ok! I'm going to make first a moderate IPA (abv 5% IBU 50) in order to have a healty yeast!
Thanks

brewed today!

Ricetta per stout, final liter 22,0 (in bollitura 27,0)
efficienza 67%, boil 120 min.
OG 1,113; IBU: 94,0; EBC: 200;
Malti:
4000 gr Pale Malt, Maris Otter, 1,038;
700 gr Chocolate Malt, 1,030;
700 gr Roasted Barley, 1,028;
370 gr Crystal 75L, 1,034;
100 gr Peated, 1,038;
500 gr flaked barley, 1,033;
3000 gr Light liquid extract, 1,036;
650 gr Amber dry extract, 1,040;
300 gr Zucchero Candito, Amber, 1,042;
hops:
15 gr Goldings, East Kent, 6,0 %a.a., 30 min, Kettle;
15 gr Goldings, East Kent, 6,0 %a.a., 10 min, Kettle;
65 gr Columbus (Tomahawk), 16,1 %a.a., 60 min, Kettle;
16 gr Chinook, 11,0 %a.a., 60 min, Kettle;
10 gr Styrian Goldings, 4,4 %a.a., 60 min, Kettle;
18 gr Tettnang, 4,5 %a.a., 60 min, Kettle;
yeast:
Scotish Ale
Mash Steps:
50 °C 15 min
66 °C 80 min
78 °C 15 min

I add the sugar only to correct the og...

i'm going to add roasted coffee beans in the secondary, is ok?

i pitch on the yeast cake of a ipa (og 1050)


thanks so much for the help!!




p.s. after 2 ours, is going crazy!

Wow. That's some seriously dark wort. Did you actually get this up to 1.113, or is that just the estimate?

1,113 is misured og, the estimated og was 1, 120

waaaaaaa it's incredible!!

now it's 70 degrees but i'm taking it to 66




edit:

this morning three liters of wort were on the floor

Uh oh, no blow-off tube on a 1.113 brew on top of an entire yeast cake? Lesson learned, hehe. Fermcap-S is also your friend to control Krausen. I use it in EVERY brew.

I still bet it turns out amazing. Just lost some product, that's all.

Nico, di dove sei? Ho studiato al milano e firenze per sette mesi, sei anni fa. La birra Citta Vecchia era la birra che mi ha convinto di fare produzione di birra. Avete mai bevuto?

P.S. Scusame, il mio italiano non e molto bene dopo tanti anni.

@solbes: wat can I use in a 1113 beer in place of the blow off?
P. S. I had never head about foam cap, I read o Google that is useful for big beers! I am going to buy it!

@freddy: vivo a Varese, vicino a Milano anche se in settimana vivo a Milano per andare all università!
Non ho mai bevuto quelle birre anche se ne ho sentito parlare!

A blow off tube is almost manditory in a 1.113" beer pitched onto an entire yeast cake. Good news is you will liekly get great attenuation out of your yeast without becoming stuck. But all that sugar being dumped onto all of that yeast will result in a pretty voilent fermentation. Mine blew like crazy and it was 1.105.

Fermcap-S, about 10 drops in 5 gallons will control most fermentations, though likely not a big RIS like that. Might reduce losses out of the blow off tube though.

The density is dropped down to 1060 in 24 hours :O
Does the fermcap causes problems to the foam in the glass when I drink the beer?
Thanks for the help

Edit: 1040, and it is gurglin very slow