Beni-Koji. Red Yeast Rice. Old School... like really really Old School

trbig said:

...Temps in the house are in the high 60's to low 70's. Oh, and I use filtered water for everything.

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Probably this. I'm not having a lot of luck in the low 70's. The batches run in the high 70's did much better....

Hmm, that's another experiment I could run. Stick a jar in my storage room, low 70's, and another identical batch in the cabinet above my fridge. Probably high 70's.

Sweet spot in my house is upper level of my pantry near the outside wall. Temps stay between 71 degrees (in a sub 60s house temp) to as high as 77 if the temp spikes to high 70s. Not really sure why but for once the temp is a good thing so I'm not complaining.

That said, we've not got the best tap water but it's done quite well in this. Doesn't hurt to go filtered granted (I go filtered for Beer personally but I have to go to a dispenser to retrieve). Just don't stress if you don't have easy access to it as great results can come even with crappy city water.



Sidenote, you had tried doing the RRY with other yeasts right? I'm running a little low on Yeast Balls and have tons of RRY still. I was thinking about throwing together a second batch with a wine yeast along with the RRY but can't quite decide which would go best with it.

Accidic said:

...Sidenote, you had tried doing the RRY with other yeasts right? I'm running a little low on Yeast Balls and have tons of RRY still. I was thinking about throwing together a second batch with a wine yeast along with the RRY but can't quite decide which would go best with it.

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Yeah, but the rice doesn't seem to want to do much in the way of liquification with either just RYR, or RYR+yeast. The experimental batches will reach day 21 on Thursday. I have no doubt that I will not be able to harvest them at that point.

Most of the recipes I was viewing showed the RRY as needing quite a bit to be effective at that. I want to say it was 1lb per 1.5lbs of rice or something really close like that. I have 3 or 4lbs left though.

Accidic said:

Most of the recipes I was viewing showed the RRY as needing quite a bit to be effective at that. I want to say it was 1lb per 1.5lbs of rice or something really close like that. I have 3 or 4lbs left though.

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I used 1/4c for 2.5c and it has liquified quite nicely in a week.

With just RRY?

My current batch started clear liquidification in about 36hrs with less than half the balls and a half cup of RRY which is days faster than I normally get with just balls.

Oh, and is the 2.5c pre cook mass?

Accidic said:

With just RRY?

My current batch started clear liquidification in about 36hrs with less than half the balls and a half cup of RRY which is days faster than I normally get with just balls.

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2.5c dry, and I did use a light dusting of Angel to be safe, but the RYR has definitely done most of the work.

My original batch was ryr and bakers yeast, was done in about 9 days at 72 F. 1 lb ryr 6.5 lbs rice 3 packs fleischmans, yield was 1.5 gallons at about 13%.
On another note, so far all of my attempts to transfer the amylase producing properties to other grains are not really working. Ryr, yeastballs, and nuruk just don't seem to like corn very much.

Check ph maybe? Otherwise I got nothing.

Hmm, possibly inadequate access to the starch in the corn. Maybe try cornmeal instead? Another possibility would be to try hominy, or masa harina. The nixtamalization process might be necessary for the corn to be broken down by RYR.

this whole thread is a giant ethanol-making nerdgasm. thanks for all the science and experiments to each of you. I go shopping at my local chinese market almost daily. I'm looking forward to having a new fun project like this to start.

Leadgolem said:

Hmm, possibly inadequate access to the starch in the corn. Maybe try cornmeal instead? Another possibility would be to try hominy, or masa harina. The nixtamalization process might be necessary for the corn to be broken down by RYR.

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Yeah I was thinking of trying cornmeal.... My other thought was to just give up on corn and ferment some more red rice wine and run it. I'm kind of scared to do a rice/nuruk/makgeoli thing bacause I can't always guaruntee I'll be there to pull it and everything says it will go sour if you miss it. I might strain out the corn nuruk ryr batch and run it anyways... it doesn't smell too bad, and I know there's some level of alcohol in it. Unfortunately, my next day off is a week from Saturday, and I have to do another run then too, takes about 5 hours.... I'll have to see what I have time for.

Hmm, I wonder if it will go sour so easily. I've seen a few comments that seem to indicate that the RYR actually slows the production of the acetic acid. I've got my oolong and first RYR batch that are definitively not ready to harvest at day 21. I'll be waiting to day 28 for those, possibly more. So, I think I will be finding out.

Not worried about rice wine but the magkeoli, the nuruk. Korean stuff.
Edit - I guess that's a rice wine too, but you know what I mean.

I thought he boiled and crushed the corn? That being the case I can't imagine the access would be any better than cornmeal although cornmeal probably possesses less enzymes (even if they are dead in this case).

Also, if you were just fermenting for ethanol, sugar would be easier. Not to mention cheaper to boot.

Accidic said:

I thought he boiled and crushed the corn? That being the case I can't imagine the access would be any better than cornmeal although cornmeal probably possesses less enzymes (even if they are dead in this case).

Also, if you were just fermenting for ethanol, sugar would be easier. Not to mention cheaper to boot.

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My goal was to replace malting with an amylase producing mold. It's not working. I also tried the yeastballs with a sugar wash to see if I could get the higher abv that you get from the rice wine, but that didn't fly either.
The corn was boiled but not crushed. Sugar washes are easy, I have 2 buckets down now, but some of the grain stuff is nice too, just a huge pain in the a$$. I'd like to be able to do corn without added alpha enzyme or tedious malting. Also, the rice wine is yummy, and can be further processed into scochu.

If you didn't crush it (smash might be a better word) I'm not sure the amylase can get to the sugar inside it. The obvious difference between kernel corn is the pericarp which serves as a kind of condom against your enzymes so to speak. Crush some of it and see if it takes off? Or did you throw it out already? It should work though, there was a DFH propaganda show a year or two ago where they did something like that using spit or some such as the Amylase. Chichi or something.

Accidic said:

If you didn't crush it (smash might be a better word) I'm not sure the amylase can get to the starch inside it. The obvious difference between kernel corn is the pericarp which serves as a kind of condom against your enzymes so to speak. Crush some of it and see if it takes off? Or did you throw it out already? It should work though, there was a DFH propaganda show a year or two ago where they did something like that using spit or some such as the Amylase. Chichi or something.

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That was my thought.

Here's the day 21 photo of the RYR batches. I have to say, I'm very disappointed. I've moved the jars to the top of my fridge, hopefully the increase in temperature will help with the liquification.

Wait, you've got then in the fridge? I want to say I read somewhere the mold doesn't like cold and thrives around 73. I keep mine in the pantry.

Naw, he said "top of the fridge", like on top.

TheDemonSlick said:

Naw, he said "top of the fridge", like on top.

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Correct. The compressor for the fridge will output a little heat every time it runs, and being up so high will get me another couple degrees. The cabinet above your fridge is one of the warmest places in most peoples houses.:fro:

TheDemonSlick said:

My goal was to replace malting with an amylase producing mold. It's not working. I also tried the yeastballs with a sugar wash to see if I could get the higher abv that you get from the rice wine, but that didn't fly either.
The corn was boiled but not crushed. Sugar washes are easy, I have 2 buckets down now, but some of the grain stuff is nice too, just a huge pain in the a$$. I'd like to be able to do corn without added alpha enzyme or tedious malting. Also, the rice wine is yummy, and can be further processed into scochu.

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Hmm, why not just mix the red rice wine with your high alcohol base before you use your other thingy? Or even afterward. After would probably give you a better flavor.

Ah, gotcha. Misunderstood. Unfortunately, there is an A/C vent right above mine so it's rather chilly up there in my house.

Leadgolem said:

Hmm, why not just mix the red rice wine with your high alcohol base before you use your other thingy? Or even afterward. After would probably give you a better flavor.

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I'd like to do some grains, and I'm Lazy. Sugar wash is easy, but I want to branch out into grains like corn, wheat, barley, etc, and I was looking for an easy way. It's all good. Rice is a grain too

Here are the 6 batches I had running. I had to harvest them, I'm going to be busy over the next week and I didn't want any of them going sour.

RYR+Rice Yeast Balls: Reasonable, though not good, yield. Very smooth, definite alcohol warmth going down. Extremely fruity. Extremely good.
Yeast Balls+Oolong tea: Poor yield. Very smooth, very sweet. Fairly low perceptible alcohol content. Slightly fruity. Very pleasant.
RYR with jasmine rice: Somewhat low yield. Very smooth, definite alcohol warmth going down. Slightly fruity. Odd yeasty aftertaste. Acceptable.
RYR with jasmine rice, and distillers yeast: Batch failed, no useful liquid yield.
RYR with Extra Long Grain rice: Batch failed, no useful liquid yield.
RYR with Extra Long Grain rice, and distillers yeast: Batch failed, no useful liquid yield.

The temperature played a fairly big part here I think. Either the fermentation temperature was to low, low 70's during most of the process, or the rice temperature was to high when the batches where mixed up. I will keep the results in mind for future batches, however the second possibility may render the experimental data here invalid.

At some point I will repeat the experiment and see if the relative performance of the batches matches these results.

I decided to go ahead with a larger batch of RYR+Yeast balls with jasmine rice. Even though the yield was low, the flavor of the wine was outstanding. I forgot to mention that none of the recent batches had any of the tang I got from the prior batches of rice wine.

This time I cooled the rice for 4 1/2 hours before mixing the powdered RYR+Yeast balls. It is also starting on top of the fridge.

Ah my first fermentor. I remember that first cider well... It was terrible.

Weird, my ryr/bakers was good, but my recipe had added water and I did a secondary ferment in the 1 gallon carboys.

There was definitely something up with the last set of batches. The larger batch is showing liquid in with the rice after only two days.

Seems plausible. Mine had water in it in only 24hrs and I went light on the water when cooking the rice. The more I thought about it the more it made me think that maybe the added weight of the larger batch helps to press on the kernel causing the water to be secreted faster as it breaks down. Otherwise though, I got nothing.

Here are a few pics of one of my batches that are coming along. It is on day 12 and looking good.

Before I went to work today I noticed that the towel I had wrapped around the dispenser to keep the light out was wet. The liquid actually over topped the dispenser and got on the towel. I stuck the whole thing down in a 5 gallon food grade bucket before I went to work.

Here are some pictures of the batch. I used a spoon to make a channel down the center for the co2 to escape. Hopefully it's done with the over flowing.

Wow, you really packed that one full!

TBBrewer said:

Wow, you really packed that one full!

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Yeah, that wasn't the greatest idea. Next time I'll just use a bigger fermenter.

Leadgolem said:

Yeah, that wasn't the greatest idea. Next time I'll just use a bigger fermenter.

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I am sure that stuff stains pretty good.

I usually stir the rice up a lot which makes it take up more space. I filled my last batch all the way to the lip of the 2g cookie jar I use and it dropped a couple inches in the first few days and probably 3" after a few weeks. I'm not quite clear on how you jam that much in to keep it at that level unless you're intentionally pressing it down as you put it in.

Accidic said:

I usually stir the rice up a lot which makes it take up more space. I filled my last batch all the way to the lip of the 2g cookie jar I use and it dropped a couple inches in the first few days and probably 3" after a few weeks. I'm not quite clear on how you jam that much in to keep it at that level unless you're intentionally pressing it down as you put it in.

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This. Like I said, not the greatest idea. I had to punch holes in it again to let co2 out when I got home today. It had heaved up above the level of the dispenser.

Sorry, there won't be any more pictures of that batch until harvest day. The fermentor is really slippery and I don't want to risk breaking it pulling it out until harvest. Smells nice though, very fruity.