Big Beer, yeast question

I made an Expedition Stout Clone from a recipe on this site. Using the brewers friend (http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/) calculator, my O.G. target was 1.163 with an F.G. 1.050. Based on those numbers, I created a yeast starter with a calculator from the same site, and the cell count needed was ridiculous. There was a difference between mr. malty and brewersfriend.

Any way, I made a 2L starter with 2 Wyeast 1968 smack packs (39 days old) on a stir plate, that didn't stir all the time. I built up an additional 2L starter and pitched it on top and this time the stir plate worked just fine, so my estimate on a cell count is 600 billion. The beer ended up with an O.G. of 1.2 and according to the calculator I need anywhere from 686 B to 914 B depending on if I select probrewer .75 or probrewer 1.0 and 1.2 T cells if I chose probrewer 1.25 and I really don't know what that means.

So my question is would you add more yeast. Now I currently have my fermentor in a room that is around 70 degrees and am contemplating bring it to my basement which is probably around 60. I am leery of stressing out my yeast and getting flavors I don't want in a this beer.

If that is a 5 gallon batch I think you should be ok with the pitching rate, but that yeast only has a ABV tolerance of 9%
Also at 70 degrees room temp. the actual fermenting temp. will be MUCH higher. I would put it in the 60 degree room for the first week or two, then
move it to the 70 degree room.
Hope this helps..

Ya I really didn't want a 20% alc beer, though it would certainly be a trophy

This is what my beer looked like this morning, sorry for the poor quality photo. I wonder how much yeast was lost here?

Sucks about the beer loss Can't tell from the pic, but did you do a blow off? I definitely would have for a beer that big.

Was it really 1.200? Are you sure? That's crazy high. Let assume you get down to 1.035, that would be 28% ABV?

Yeastcalc.com (my favorite pitching rate/starter calculator) says you are probably okay (says you need 646 billion). But as RoadKing says, that yeast is only able to handle 9% ABV, so I assume many cells will die off. Not sure how to fix that though. Good luck!

Thanks, Yep blow off and the lid keeps coming off. I guess I wasn't totally prepared for this, but I wasn't expecting to hit 1.2. One of my brewing buddies told me to add some high tolerance neutral flavor yeast, or the beer will never ferment out. So I am searching some out. If any body has any suggestions, I would love to hear them.

you'd want WLP099 (supposedly 25%ABV limit). you'll need a large starter of it and want to pitch it while its active with some nutrient, and likely need to re-oxygenate your wort as its an O2 hog

how on earth did you hit 20% higher efficiency than expected in such a big beer? usually efficiency goes the opposite way in big beers

also 1968 can pass 9%, but only to like 12% so still way under what you need

I was going to chime in and say BE SURE TO USE A BLOWOFF with an OG like that... looks like you even needed extra headspace too.

If you wan to see other issues people have with such big beers check out this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/dark-night-soul-russian-imperial-stout-21088/

The target OG is lower than yours but still good info.

Our local home-brew store is currently out of stock on wlp099, so I was planning on buying a packet of the dry super yeast. With 099 I would do a starter, but with the dry I was planning on re-hydrating 1 pack of the super yeast, should I do 2?

And I am not sure how I got to 1.2., I split the grain bill exactly in half and did two separate mashes. If that has something to do with it?? I am not sure how that would matter, but it is the only thing I can think of.

Just an update on this debacle. I did not hit 1.2, because I am an idiot, I read my hydrometer on the wrong side. It's not like I never read the thing before, I guess because this was the biggest beer I have done to date, I was anticipating high gravity and upon seeing the 1.2 on the balling scale, I thought holy crap, and left it at that. The reality was a gravity somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.08. So my question now is, why was I so far off from the 1.163 I was supposed to get? My friend suggests that my ph is way off, but I use the ph stabilizer in all my mashes and I am always close on my gravity, so I am puzzled.

Of note, the beer has been in the keg for 1 month now and is fantastic, not the super rich, ridiculously alcoholic brew I was expecting, but I am very happy with this quality of a beer, and is probably one of the best beers I have made, and I would pay handsomely for this beer at a brew pub.

pmoneyismyfriend said:

The reality was a gravity somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.08. So my question now is, why was I so far off from the 1.163 I was supposed to get? My friend suggests that my ph is way off, but I use the ph stabilizer in all my mashes and I am always close on my gravity, so I am puzzled.

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As mentioned above, it's very common to see lower efficiency on huge beers. This is because you have the same amount of sparge water as a smaller beer (assuming your preboil volume is the same) but much more grain. So the effective sparge water (in quarts per lb) is a lot lower. I consistently get in the low 80s for efficiency, but on big beers this easily drops below 60%. I don't think my experience is unique.

To compensate you can add more base malt, or sparge with extra water and boil for longer to concentrate. I think the easiest option is to keep some extra light DME on hand and add an appropriate amount based on your preboil gravity, I always have some just in case. For big beers, I'll calculate the grain bill based on a much lower efficiency (say 65%) but I'll still have some DME on hand.

You didn't mention what your mash efficiency was, or what it normally is. But these are important things to keep track of if you want your beers to be consistent. Saying "I am always close to my gravity" doesn't really tell you much. What efficiency are you basing the expected OG on for this recipe? What about for your other recipes? Are you measuring volumes carefully? Is your boiloff rate consistent? Are you doing a preboil SG measurement? etc. Doing all of these things can help, and that way you can correct the gravity at the preboil stage before it screws up the recipe. Brewing software like Beersmith is very valuable for these calculations and for general record keeping.

For a big beer like this you can also do a partigyle and make some type of session beer off the second runnings. That way none of the sugar goes to waste

It has nothing to do with pH.

Zach, how would you define a "big beer" in terms of your efficiency going down?

I've done 3 AG BIAB beer in the 1.070 range and have gotten about 75% every time. What should I expect to get on a bigger and smaller beer?

Well of course every system is different. I do a traditional infusion mash and fly sparge, so I'm going to have very different results from you with your BIAB process. But for me it's something north of 1.08. I also do my boiling on an indoor kitchen stove, so my boiloff rate of 0.5 gal/hr isn't as high as what most people see.

I am not sure how my sparge water is less, I use 1.5 qts per pound of grain, so the proportion is always consistent. I have attached the recipe that I used, I use the Brewers Friend recipe builder calculated at 75% efficiency. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I split the recipe in half and did 2 mash's because my equipment isn't large enough to handle 28lbs of grain. My pre-boil volume was approximately 7 gallons, my wort collection was just shy of 6 gallons after a 75 minute boil.

Based on this info, what would you do differently?

View attachment Expedition Stout Clone - Beer Recipe Brewer's Friend.pdf

how did u do 1.5 qt/lb mash & sparge and only end up with 7 gallons pre-boil? that's about 17 gallons. just the mash alone would've yielded about 7 gallons

pmoneyismyfriend said:

why was I so far off from the 1.163 I was supposed to get? My friend suggests that my ph is way off, but I use the ph stabilizer in all my mashes and I am always close on my gravity, so I am puzzled.

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Your low efficiency problem is almost certainly related to the large grain bill/low sparge volumes as others have alluded to.

As a side note/PSA, I will tell you that the pH stabilizer is nearly useless at controlling pH in the working pH range you are shooting for, and is almost assuredly a complete waste of money. It actually adds a lot of sodium to your beer and can be detrimental.

Someone above mentioned that pH has no effect on efficiency, which is incorrect. Enzymatic activity is a function of temperature and pH, and if you are far out of the optimal 5.2 - 5.8 range, your conversion/efficiency will suffer.

g-star said:

Someone above mentioned that pH has no effect on efficiency, which is incorrect. Enzymatic activity is a function of temperature and pH, and if you are far out of the optimal 5.2 - 5.8 range, your conversion/efficiency will suffer.

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That would be me.

I didn't mean to say that efficiency is never affected by pH, rather I meant that in this case I strongly believe it's due to the huge grain bill. Especially considering OP's other brews haven't had problems.

Anyone want to take a stab at that recipe? Those OG and FG numbers don't look right. I could be wrong, but the Expedition Stout doesn't taste sweet enough to have an FG of 1.050.

the recipe is for 5 gallons. with a split mash @ 1.5 qt, the sparge water equals 5.2 gallons. I collected 3.5 gallons per mash.

There are 28 lbs of grain. 1.5 qts/lb = 10.5 gallons of water to strike, assuming 0.2 gallons/lb for grain absorption and you have 4.9 gallons of first runnings. To get a 7 gallon preboil means you only have 2.1 gallons of sparge water, not 5.2.

It shouldn't matter that it was split if you kept the ratios the same. Why don't you walk us through the exact process including all your volumes and gravity measurements?

pmoneyismyfriend said:

the recipe is for 5 gallons. with a split mash @ 1.5 qt, the sparge water equals 5.2 gallons. I collected 3.5 gallons per mash.

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i think you're getting terms mixed up. sounds like you didn't do a sparge

I rinse with 5.2 gallons, I only collect what I need to get my pre boil volume

so are you saying you did 5.2 gallons per batch for a mash & 5.2 gallons each for sparge? you must have had tons of wort left behind then (like 8-10gallons)

pmoneyismyfriend said:

I rinse with 5.2 gallons, I only collect what I need to get my pre boil volume

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Ah, so you left all that wort in the mash tun with the grains? That'll do it. The general procedure is to sparge with what you need to get your preboil volume, not sparge with a lot of water and only collect what you need. Or are you fly sparging?

Fly sparge, I measure @ 1.5 qts per lb of grain, in general, to have ample sparge water, but only collect whats needed, in this case, 3.5 gallons per mash. Generally speaking though, I use most all of it. Granted there is obviously liquid left in the mash tun, and I don't think that is uncommon, and like I stated earlier, I don't really have trouble with my beers turning out. And this beer is fantastic, I am just wondering why I came up so short on my gravity. What I have gathered from some responses, is too much sparge water, not enough sparge water, I didn't sparge at all, I should explain in detail my processes. The process, with out explicit detail, is always, mash, sparge, boil, ferment, keg and drink....lots

pmoneyismyfriend said:

keg and drink....lots

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If you're doing a true fly sparge (flowing in very slowly, collecting very slowly, absolutely no stirring) then you're right, it doesn't matter how much extra sparge water you have. And it sounds like your process is fine. Next time you can sparge with extra water and boil for longer, or use more extract. Regardless, taking a preboil gravity reading is always a good idea so you can correct it with extract before it's a problem. And really, if you're fly sparging it's a perfect excuse to do a partigyle. Once you've got your preboil volume, just keep on fly sparging into a second kettle and you've got a smaller batch of session beer.

my sparge takes me around 45 minutes. I get what you are saying about the DME, I usually only keep enough on hand for my starters, I will keep that in mind for my next beers, especially when I do this one again, and I will do it again. I guess what is still puzzling is, I follow the recipes, and plug everything into Brewer's Friend software and my gravity's are calculated, but the difference between what I got and what I was supposed to get is .080, roughly, that's alot, and to make up that difference would amount to an additional 11lbs of DME, that's extreme, and I assume would have a definite impact on my flavors, yes, no?