Flanders Red Not Sour

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BertusBrew

BertusBrew

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I brewed a Flanders Red that is 6months old right now. I used wlp665. I know that the bugs take a long time to sour a beer, but there is absolutely no sour or tartness to the beer at all. There is a strong brett character to it. Will this sour on it's own still or do I need to add tart cherries or something else to help this beer along.
 
BertusBrew said:
I brewed a Flanders Red that is 6months old right now. I used wlp665. I know that the bugs take a long time to sour a beer, but there is absolutely no sour or tartness to the beer at all. There is a strong brett character to it. Will this sour on it's own still or do I need to add tart cherries or something else to help this beer along.
Click to expand...

Mine was slightly sour in 2 months, and by 6 months intensely, puckeringly sour. Wyeast Roeselare. I pitched it straight, without any other yeast. I've done 3 that way and they are all sour (perhaps too sour).

I did add cherries and currants to mine after a few months. Can't hurt to try that.
 
BertusBrew said:
It is around 72.
Click to expand...

Bacteria like it a little warmer than that. If you could do like 78 for a while, they might wake up and get funky.
 
IBUs? Abv?

Lacto doesn't like hop oils. Anything above 10 can give it problems. I'm not sure Pedio is any better.

Both Lacto and Pedio will stall around 8% abv too.

At 6 months you should have noticeable souring unless you have done something to inhibit the bugs.
 
BertusBrew said:
I brewed a Flanders Red that is 6months old right now. I used wlp665. I know that the bugs take a long time to sour a beer, but there is absolutely no sour or tartness to the beer at all. There is a strong brett character to it. Will this sour on it's own still or do I need to add tart cherries or something else to help this beer along.
Click to expand...

I had similar experience with WLP665 in my Oud Bruin. It has some tartness but it's very mild and the brett character is much more noticeable. On the other hand my three Flanders Reds brewed with Roeselare (one being younger than the Oud Bruin) are very much sour. All these brews have been stored in my basement utility room. The Oud Bruin used un-aged hop pellets while the three Flanders Reds used aged homegrown hops (2009 harvest stored in paper bags in my garage since 2009).

Since the environmental conditions were essentially the same, I'm guessing either the IBU level from the pellet hops caused problems and/or the bug strains in this blend aren't quite as aggressive as say Roeselare. I'm thinking of doing another batch with WLP665 and aged hops and seeing what happens. I likes my sours pretty intensely sour so if I get similar results I'll prob stick with Roeselare from then on.
 
I'm thinking about making a lacto starter from grains and pitching it when it starts taking off, along with pitching some tart cherry juice to give the lacto something to eat. Thoughts?
 
The hops may still stop the lacto. You could brew another five gallons at zero IBUs, put half into two carboys then split the batch that is already started into the two carboys. It wouldn't hurt to add more dregs at that point either.
 
BryanThompson said:
The hops may still stop the lacto. You could brew another five gallons at zero IBUs, put half into two carboys then split the batch that is already started into the two carboys. It wouldn't hurt to add more dregs at that point either.
Click to expand...

that's a good idea, problem is I would have to go buy another carboy because I'm at full capacity at the moment.
 
Is the 6.5% too much? I thought I heard on the Jamil show that flanders browns were less sour in part due to the ABV near 6% - and that 6% was the tipping point for bacteria.
 
FlyDoctor said:
Is the 6.5% too much? I thought I heard on the Jamil show that flanders browns were less sour in part due to the ABV near 6% - and that 6% was the tipping point for bacteria.
Click to expand...

8% is considered the tipping point, but I made a Oud Bruin last year that was a bit higher than that and it came out quite sour. 3rd generation Roeselare.
 
What are you fermenting in? I know many people are terrified of letting acetobacter get going, but if you're in a zero oxygen glass carboy, you may want to put a foam stopper in overnight. While the best samples have a sourness dominated by lactic acid, the acetic acid provides complexity and is appropriate in a Flanders Red.
 
I think the IBUs and ABV have stopped the lacto, and if it hadn't, there's not any food left for it at this point. There is still hope for the pedio, but I would think you would have seen the ropiness by now. You could make a 1-2 gallon batch with just pale malt, no hops and let whatever's on the grain sour it at the warmest place you can find. It should get sufficiently sour to impact the 5 gallon batch when blended in.
 
slightly off topic question - why are the BJCP suggested IBU guidelines for Flanders Red 10-25 IBU if they are so detrimental to souring bacteria?
 
Mine is at 5 weeks old right now and I'm blown away at how close it is to the finished product already.
It's at 6% ABV and 8 IBUs, Roeselare pitched straight in the cooled wort with no starter and no extra sacc to "get things going"

I also mashed high (156F) in order to leave plenty of food for the lacto/pedio/brett after sacc was done with the smaller chain sugars.

Fermentation was in the 60s and it's just now barely starting to warm up to 70-72F.

If you make another batch and pitch it on the yeast cake of the first beer that you can transferred will be more sour than the first and then you can blend to your liking.
 
At 6 months the pedio will have done next to nothing. You are worrying about nothing. It is like tasting a pilsner 2 days after pitching and worrying that it does not taste right.
 
I agree with TimT. Let it be. My flanders go for 1+ years at a minimum. Read the package as they say... "will take 12-18 months to finish."

Its like you're pulling out a cake after baking for 5 min and expecting perfect crumb texture, but all you have is goop.

Ok, so I suck at analogies.
 
My Flanders on Roeselare was awesome at 6 months. Yes, it's my judgement regarding the taste, but I've woken up in the morning, hung over, in Russian River's parking lot, so I've had my share of good sour beers. I did let them go for over a year, and they got a little dryer and more tart, but I still think back that they were the best at that 6 month mark.

Not trying to argue with you guys, just telling you my experience.
 
Passedpawn would you care to share your recipe & process for the flanders reds you have done? I just did my first one last Friday (only my second ever sour beer). I stuck to Jeff Sparrow's recipe from BYO below. I did a 12 gallon batch and pitched Roeselare. It took off fast and has been fermenting strong since. I just did a single infusion mash step @ 155 was going for 158 and missed it. One question I can't seem to find a solid answer on is aerating. Some say do it, others seem to say don't do it with sours. I aerated it well like I would any other beer.

To keep on topic and hopefully not hi-jack the post here. I'm hoping that it turns out pretty sour / tart and don't want to end up with the same problem that the OP has. Thanks for any advice.



Acid Ale Recipes

West Flanders Red Ale
by Jeff Sparrow
(5-gallons/19 L, all-grain)
OG = 1.057 FG = 1.002–1.012
IBU = 11 SRM = 22 ABV = 6.5%

Ingredients
5 lbs. 5 oz. (2.4 kg) Vienna malt
2 lbs. 8 oz. (1.1 kg) Pils malt
15 oz. (0.43 kg) aromatic malt
15 oz. (0.43 kg) CaraVienne malt
2 lbs. 2 oz. (0.96 kg) raw wheat
5.0 oz. (0.14 kg) special B malt
3 AAU Hallertau hops (60 mins)
(0.75 oz./21 g of 4.0% alpha acids)
2.0 oz. (57 g) oak cubes (medium toast)
Wyeast 3763 (Roeselare Blend) or White Labs WLP655 (Belgian Sour Mix)

Step by Step
Use 1.33 quarts of water per pound of grain (2.8 L/kg). Dough-in 90% of the malted grains to hit 122 °F (50 °C), and hold for 20 minutes. Mash the unmalted wheat and remaining 10% of the malted grain at 145 °F (63 °C) and hold for 15 minutes, then add the adjunct mash to the main mash. Traditionally, brewers use a multi-step mash schedule: Raise to 145 °F (63 °C) and hold for 40 minutes, then raise to 162 °F (72 °C) and hold for 30 minutes. Recently, I've been experimenting with a single step of about 158 °F (70 °C), to promote the formation of "unfermentable sugar" to make the yeast and bacteria work a little harder. Raise to 169 °F (76 °C), and hold for 10 minutes. When finished, sparge with 176 °F (80 °C) water.

Boil for 2 hours at a rolling boil. Cool the beer to 70 °F (21 °C) and pitch it with your yeast blend into a carboy. The Roeselare culture is a complete blend of all of the yeasts and bacteria necessary for fermentation. Ferment at 70 °F (21 °C). Once visible signs of fermentation have finished, rack with the equivalent of 2.0 oz. (57 g) of oak cubes for 5 gallons (19 L) into a second carboy. Put it in a corner at ambient temperature and wait (and wait). With time, a thin white film (pellicle) will form on the top of the beer. Eventually, you will sample the beer and determine that it is ready. Bottle with new yeast and your desired amount of priming sugar. As always, save me a bottle.
 
LoloMT7 said:
Passedpawn would you care to share your recipe & process for the flanders reds you have done? I just did my first one last Friday (only my second ever sour beer). I stuck to Jeff Sparrow's recipe from BYO below. I did a 12 gallon batch and pitched Roeselare. It took off fast and has been fermenting strong since. I just did a single infusion mash step @ 155 was going for 158 and missed it. One question I can't seem to find a solid answer on is aerating. Some say do it, others seem to say don't do it with sours. I aerated it well like I would any other beer.

To keep on topic and hopefully not hi-jack the post here. I'm hop
Cheesy_Goodness said:
I must have good timing, I mean to smoke a turkey breast tonight. The breast has been dry brined for about 24 hours. Thinking about salt and pepper with some sage leaves under the skin.

Anything in particular to look out for?
Click to expand...

ing that it turns out pretty sour / tart and don't want to end up with the same problem that the OP has. Thanks for any advice.



Acid Ale Recipes

West Flanders Red Ale
by Jeff Sparrow
(5-gallons/19 L, all-grain)
OG = 1.057 FG = 1.002–1.012
IBU = 11 SRM = 22 ABV = 6.5%

Ingredients
5 lbs. 5 oz. (2.4 kg) Vienna malt
2 lbs. 8 oz. (1.1 kg) Pils malt
15 oz. (0.43 kg) aromatic malt
15 oz. (0.43 kg) CaraVienne malt
2 lbs. 2 oz. (0.96 kg) raw wheat
5.0 oz. (0.14 kg) special B malt
3 AAU Hallertau hops (60 mins)
(0.75 oz./21 g of 4.0% alpha acids)
2.0 oz. (57 g) oak cubes (medium toast)
Wyeast 3763 (Roeselare Blend) or White Labs WLP655 (Belgian Sour Mix)

Step by Step
Use 1.33 quarts of water per pound of grain (2.8 L/kg). Dough-in 90% of the malted grains to hit 122 °F (50 °C), and hold for 20 minutes. Mash the unmalted wheat and remaining 10% of the malted grain at 145 °F (63 °C) and hold for 15 minutes, then add the adjunct mash to the main mash. Traditionally, brewers use a multi-step mash schedule: Raise to 145 °F (63 °C) and hold for 40 minutes, then raise to 162 °F (72 °C) and hold for 30 minutes. Recently, I've been experimenting with a single step of about 158 °F (70 °C), to promote the formation of "unfermentable sugar" to make the yeast and bacteria work a little harder. Raise to 169 °F (76 °C), and hold for 10 minutes. When finished, sparge with 176 °F (80 °C) water.

Boil for 2 hours at a rolling boil. Cool the beer to 70 °F (21 °C) and pitch it with your yeast blend into a carboy. The Roeselare culture is a complete blend of all of the yeasts and bacteria necessary for fermentation. Ferment at 70 °F (21 °C). Once visible signs of fermentation have finished, rack with the equivalent of 2.0 oz. (57 g) of oak cubes for 5 gallons (19 L) into a second carboy. Put it in a corner at ambient temperature and wait (and wait). With time, a thin white film (pellicle) will form on the top of the beer. Eventually, you will sample the beer and determine that it is ready. Bottle with new yeast and your desired amount of priming sugar. As always, save me a bottle.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't bother with oxygenation. I know I didn't. I figured with the blend of yeast and bacteria, it was going to have no problem tackling the beer.

For the same reason, I wouldn't worry about missing your target temperatures. The bacteria in this blend will take care of it. I think higher mash temps or quicker mash times are more appropriate for sour beers anyway since they have a tendency to get very dry over time.

Roeselare is an incredible yeast. The first time it is. I used it for 3 generations and they got successively worse. The last batch lost some of it's fruitiness and body and it's just a hardcore sour beer without the complexities that make it appealing. So, as hard as it is for me to say this, because I reuse yeast A LOT, blends like this don't work well over many generations.

I made a couple of 10g batches of Flanders Red and an Oud Bruin with this yeast. The reds turned out pretty good. The Bruin, meh. It's really important to get some fruit flavor in a sour, otherwise it is objectionable. So, I put a lot of sour cherries (canned, from Walmart) and Currants (Zante, which are like raisins, as opposed to black currants which are very hard to find except at www.currantc.com). The fruit will add a lot of 100% fermentable sugars, which will continue to make the beer drier yet. But it's worth it, for the flavors.

Otherwise, I went with the Brewing Classic Styles / Jamil Z recipe. Here it is below.

flanders.jpg
 
passedpawn said:
Roeselare is an incredible yeast. The first time it is. I used it for 3 generations and they got successively worse. The last batch lost some of it's fruitiness and body and it's just a hardcore sour beer without the complexities that make it appealing. So, as hard as it is for me to say this, because I reuse yeast A LOT, blends like this don't work well over many generations.
Click to expand...

Care to share your re-use process for Roeselare? Pitch on cake after 2 weeks, pitch on cake after 2 years, store in fridge, store at RT, never store, ??????

I've just started this yeast. I re-use most yeast. For sours, I rack 1.5 liters just after fermentation has died down (still fermenting and cloudy). I keep this in a wine bottle, with an airlock, at RT. After about a year (when I'm ready), I use this as my yeast for another batch.
 
Calder said:
Care to share your re-use process for Roeselare? Pitch on cake after 2 weeks, pitch on cake after 2 years, store in fridge, store at RT, never store, ??????

I've just started this yeast. I re-use most yeast. For sours, I rack 1.5 liters just after fermentation has died down (still fermenting and cloudy). I keep this in a wine bottle, with an airlock, at RT. After about a year (when I'm ready), I use this as my yeast for another batch.
Click to expand...

I just checked on notes. Apparently I pitched on cake. With a blend, it's not a good idea since the bacteria grows much faster than the sacc and the later generations will be different. This was indeed the case. Of course, I also started with a LOT more yeast/bacyteria as well. I have made many mistakes in brewing, and this was one of them.

The final product from overpitching and using second+ generation Roeselare was a dryer, less flavorful beer. No doubt there.

Here's my notes from batch #2, from 3 years ago. By the way, the OG was 1.072.

This beer racked onto previous Flanders Red yeast cake.

[30oct11] tastes great! Transfered to secondary (glass) and topped off with CO2. I've barely touched this one, so that probably explains the lack of acetic acid. I have high hopes here. Noticeable cherry flavor.

[06NOV11] Pitched some RR Consecration dregs into fermenter.

[10NOV11] Woo hoo! My first pellicle is forming over top the surface (in glass carboy). Nice!

[?? FEB12} added 1 box zante currants and 1 box dried cherries.

[16MAR12] racked to keg. measured 1.012​
 
I have 10 gallons of Flanders Red right at ~ 8months. Tastes old but not sour. I read somewhere that adding O2 can impede the lacto. That might explain things as I hit both mine for a minute each :(
 

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