Converting a recipe that uses % into lbs

I found a recipe on this site that lists the ingredients in terms of %s and I was wondering how I can go about translating the recipe into actual weights. I have the OG I am aiming for and the size of the batch. Is there anything else I need?

Most brewing software also give percentages when you input the weights. It may take a little trial and error, but Brewer'sFriend is a free online one that you can insert all of the ingredients and test weights to find the right percentage. BeerSmith may be able to do it just with percentages, but I'm not sure.

That's a lil frustrating to me too. Seems to me you'd have to know the total amount of grains used to determine the amount of a particular one. Beersmith does this too. But it also counts in extracts,sugars,etc in the total amount. So some seperating seems to be in order. I like the way the recipes are listed in this free copy of "best of BYO,250 classic clone recipes" midwest sent with my late arriving order. They give amounts in US Standard & metric. So much easier to understand.

unionrdr said:

That's a lil frustrating to me too. Seems to me you'd have to know the total amount of grains used to determine the amount of a particular one. Beersmith does this too. But it also counts in extracts,sugars,etc in the total amount. So some seperating seems to be in order. I like the way the recipes are listed in this free copy of "best of BYO,250 classic clone recipes" midwest sent with my late arriving order. They give amounts in US Standard & metric. So much easier to understand.

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The reason it is done is because everyone gets different efficiencies. A brewer who gets 70% efficiency cannot take the same weight of grain as a brewer who gets 85% efficiency. You have to figure out how much total grain you will need given your set up and then use the percentages to figure out the recipe for your system.

http://beersmith.com/building-a-recipe-using-grain-percentages/

Not sure how much that helps but you'll have to play around a bit no matter what. Knowing the efficiencies of your equipment will help a lot.

rklinck said:

The reason it is done is because everyone gets different efficiencies. A brewer who gets 70% efficiency cannot take the same weight of grain as a brewer who gets 85% efficiency. You have to figure out how much total grain you will need given your set up and then use the percentages to figure out the recipe for your system.

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It would be a lot less guesswork though to provide the lbs and have the brewer adjust according to their efficiency.

That's what I'm thinking at this point. Especially after looking at the copy of Best of BYO's 250 classic clone recipes. Amounts are given for what brewing styles are mentioned.

Removed.

[Ignore... I don't know what I'm talking about... You need to know the Total Amount of Grains... and how to figure *that* out is finally given on the second post on the second page...]

This is pretty simple math that should not require brewing software. Going by percentages is nice because you can scale up/down much more easily.

OP; what is the recipe?

For me, percentages were only an issue when brewing extract, since typically I was trying to make a 5 gallon batch and was trying to use the entire contents of ingredients I would buy for a batch. For example, if a beer called for 5.25 pounds of LME, I might just toss in 5 pounds, modify my specialty grains a bit and call it a day.

All grain is a totally different story since there's a good chance I'll have an extra pound or two of grain and it's cheap, unlike another jug of LME or opening another bag of DME. Now, with all grain, someone can just tell me the grain bill and percentages and I can scale it to 5 gallons, 6 gallons, 12 gallons, whatever.

rjthomas21 said:

I found a recipe on this site that lists the ingredients in terms of %s and I was wondering how I can go about translating the recipe into actual weights. I have the OG I am aiming for and the size of the batch. Is there anything else I need?

Click to expand...

You need to know the efficiency for your system, too. Depending on amount of specialty malts or adjuncts, you may also need to know the gp per pound for those. Most base malt has 37 gp per pound with specialty malts ranging from a few points lower to around 30.

If the recipe is for a 1.050 beer and you brew 6 gallon batches, that means you need 300 gp total. If you get 75% efficiency, 300/.75 = 400. If you're using mostly base malt, just divide by 37. 400/37= 10.81 lbs of grain.

You can be more precise by writing out the percentage of each malt in recipe by the gp/lb for each malt. If your recipe is 93% 2 row, 5% c40, and 2% black malt it would be something like .93x(37) + .05x(32) + .02x(30) = 400 (for the above example of a 1.050 beer, 6 gallons, 75% eff). Lazy way is off by .1 lb for this example.

Hope this helps.

TNGabe said:

. If your recipe is 93% 2 row, 5% c40, and 2% black malt it would be something like .93x(37) + .05x(32) + .02x(30) = 400

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Lost me here. Did you mean:

.93x(37) + .05x(32) + .02x(30) = 36.61

so Number of gallons is 400/36.61 = 10.93 lbs but 10.81 = 400/37 is good enough for government work?

Yours is definitely the best answer so far. (Albeit the hardest to actually do.)

woozy said:

Lost me here. Did you mean:

.93x(37) + .05x(32) + .02x(30) = 36.61

so Number of gallons is 400/36.61 = 10.93 lbs but 10.81 = 400/37 is good enough for government work?

Yours is definitely the best answer so far. (Albeit the hardest to actually do.)

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I meant big 'X' as in variable, not little 'x' as in multiply, forgot to hit shift I guess. So 36.61X=400.

But yes, you've got the idea. I usually just go the lazy route, and fudge my numbers a bit if I think I need to.

To further complicate things, sugar additions are often % of fermentables and not % of weight like the grains.

funnycreature said:

It would be a lot less guesswork though to provide the lbs and have the brewer adjust according to their efficiency.

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Not really. I make 10 gallon batches, with a 75% efficiency.

Maybe someone else makes a 5 gallon batch with a 82% efficiency. Or a microbrewery makes 20 barrel batches.

It's really easier to use percentages for recipes, at least in the long run. If I tell you my recipe is 80% maris otter, 5% dark crystal, 5% light crystal and 10% Munich malt, that's really all anybody needs to make the recipe. Not pounds, ounces, efficiency, gallons, etc. Just those percentages work across the board.

Yooper said:

If I tell you my recipe is 80% maris otter, 5% dark crystal, 5% light crystal and 10% Munich malt, that's really all anybody needs to make the recipe. ... Just those percentages work across the board.

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Yes, but what is the board?

The user needs some method to know roughly how much grains total to use. (5 pound, 10 pounds, 100??)

I like TNGabe's method with Original Gravity.

It would seem to me that if a recipe writer would specify, percentages, target gravity, and gp per pound for the recipe grain bill (so the brewer won't have to look it up all over again) then we'd have a magic formula:

Total grains in lbs = (Original Gravity - 1)*Volume in Gallons / Efficiency*gp-per-lb

rklinck said:

The reason it is done is because everyone gets different efficiencies. A brewer who gets 70% efficiency cannot take the same weight of grain as a brewer who gets 85% efficiency. You have to figure out how much total grain you will need given your set up and then use the percentages to figure out the recipe for your system.

Click to expand...

well, that's not the entire story. efficiency only affects base malts. efficiency refers to conversion, and specialty malts are already converted. you can assume 100% efficiency from those. changes in efficiency should only affect how much base malt you need. a 5 gallon batch needs, say, 8 oz of chocolate regardless of efficiency.

that's the problem with a recipe that all percentage: you need to know the recipe's assumed efficiency, which isn't always included.

woozy said:

Yes, but what is the board?

The user needs some method to know roughly how much grains total to use. (5 pound, 10 pounds, 100??)

I like TNGabe's method with Original Gravity.

It would seem to me that if a recipe writer would specify, percentages, target gravity, and gp per pound for the recipe grain bill (so the brewer won't have to look it up all over again) then we'd have a magic formula:

Total grains in lbs = (Original Gravity - 1)*Volume in Gallons / Efficiency*gp-per-lb

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Well, that's the thing. In a 3000 gallon batch, they'd need more grain that I would in my 10 gallon batch. The actual pounds don't matter.

You need whatever you need to hit your OG, whether it's 10 pounds or 20 pounds of grain. If you have 60% efficiency, and I have 75% efficiency, even for the same sized batch, I need less grain.

That's why percentages are so commonly used. It's always 80%/10%/10% or whatever, for everybody.

sweetcell said:

well, that's not the entire story. efficiency only affects base malts. efficiency refers to conversion, and specialty malts are already converted. you can assume 100% efficiency from those. changes in efficiency should only affect how much base malt you need. a 5 gallon batch needs, say, 8 oz of chocolate regardless of efficiency.

that's the problem with a recipe that all percentage: you need to know the recipe's assumed efficiency, which isn't always included.

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No, that's not so. You still use the same % of grain. For my system, 8 ounces of chocolate may not be what you need for your system and your efficiency.

Efficiency does NOT affect only base malts. It's the total grain.

Yooper said:

No, that's not so. You still use the same % of grain. For my system, 8 ounces of chocolate may not be what you need for your system and your efficiency.

Efficiency does NOT affect only base malts. It's the total grain.

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i, and Jamil Z, disagree with you

you get 100% efficiency from crystal malts. they don't require conversion (which is what efficiency is measuring).

Only if you get a complete sparge. If not, some of the sugars from your specialty malts will be left behind in the grain bed.

Well, there's this.

Highlights:


No. It's because no-one tells "them" of the bat what these are percentages *OF*... that's really, really, really, important and patronizing us and assuming we don't know how to do simple math is really annoying. Of *course* we know what 93% 2-row means. We just don't know what 93% means. We just don't know 93% of #WHAT#???


Okay, so what's that figure... below where ....

Well, it gets tedious but it's ultimately TNGabe's method. (although it gives the gp in a table of percentage potential rather than total per pound so there are two constants (one for U.S. standard and one for metric).

Yooper said:

You need whatever you need to hit your OG, whether it's 10 pounds or 20 pounds of grain. If you have 60% efficiency, and I have 75% efficiency, even for the same sized batch, I need less grain.

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Right. But to a beginner eager to try out a new recipe figuring out whatever you need to hit the OG isn't self-evident.

We (I'm a beginner) need a way to figure this out.

Using TNGabe's method, I think you can say:

G = (original gravity - 1)x 1000) (gravity points)
V = volume of batch
Ef = efficiency
GP = grain point/lb/gallon (calculable from tables[*] but assume 37 if one is lazy; be nice if recipe writers would include this)

Grains in lbs = G * V /Ef * GP

Yes?

[*] actually I'm not 100% sure how to do this from a table like this which gives "extract potential" as a percentage of weight. I'm kind of lost in what a gravity point unit represents and what a grain point unit represents. I can accept gravity point. But I'm not sure I see how grain points relate to lbs to get grain-points per lb.

+++++
Okay, this from Palmer gives us points per pound per gallon, which allows all the units to even out. But I kind of wish I know what a "point" was...

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... sigh ... can someone point me to a recipe that is given in only percentages so I can work my way through one of these...

~~~~~~~
And, geez, how does this relate to hops *EVERY* recipe I've seen so far has given given hops quanitity with a *specific* volume in mind.


@@@@@
phew. I got it figured out, I think.

A) A grain (or grain mixture) has a potential Max. Yield of what percentage of it's weight under perfect extraction will be soluable sugar.

B) One lb. of sugar disolved in one gallon of water has a specific gravity of 1.04631.

THUS

C) If you multiply the potential Max. Yield percentage of a grain by 46.31, you get what is called the grain's point/lb/gallon, or PPG, which is how many gravity points (.001 increase in specific gravity) 1 lb of the grains *total* soluable sugars would raise a gallon of liquid.

You can find the PPGs of grains on a table like this. And thus you can calculate the PPG of a grain bill. (Example: Yoopers 80% maris otter, 5% dark crystal, 5% light crystal and 10% Munich malt will have .8* 35 + .05 * 33 + .05 * 35 + .1 * 35 = 34.9. (Or we could be lazy and just assume 37 which is the PPG of 2-row lager malt))

And now everything just into place:

D) (PPG * total grains in lbs) * efficiency = original gravity in points * volume

Hence

E) total grains in lbs = (original gravity in points * volume in gallons)/(PPG * efficiency)


It's nice when things finally click.

sweetcell said:

i, and Jamil Z, disagree with you

you get 100% efficiency from crystal malts. they don't require conversion (which is what efficiency is measuring).

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No, you don't. And I don't think Jamil would say that, but if you have a link showing where he said that, I'll have to believe it.

You never get 100% efficiency in a grain.

sweetcell said:

i, and Jamil Z, disagree with you

you get 100% efficiency from crystal malts. they don't require conversion (which is what efficiency is measuring).

Click to expand...

FWIW, I was taught a recipe design class by the head brewmaster of a local craft brewery and he taught it differently. Of course it may be taught differently by different people, but the below information has worked for me flawlessly.

The only things you get 100% efficiency from is base sugars like Corn Syrup, Table Sugar, Maltodextrin, etc. Also DME and LME since they are processed to give 100% efficiency.

Crystal Malts in numerous sources have a gravity point rating because they do have sugars that can be converted in them.

Now to to topic of the thread, converting a recipe from percentages to grain bill only requires a few things:

1) The percentages and type of grains
2) The estimated original gravity

All grains have a specific gravity yield they can provide for gravity points. There are many tables that can be found using a quick Google search.

You can calculate everything else needed for the recipe based on your system. What you need to provide to the equation is:

1) Efficiency of your system
2) Batch size you are wanting

Then it's a matter of the math as has been explained previously by others in this thread.

A good source of all of this information can be found in Designing Great Beers by Ray Daniels.

An example of a recipe conversion would be like this:

British Pale Ale
OG: 1.064

Maris Otter 75%
Victory Malt 20%
Crystal 40 5%

You want to brew a 10 gallon batch and you know your system runs at 75% efficiency.

So 10 gal x 64 gp (gravity points from the OG) = 640 gp

Maris Otter 37 gp x 75% efficiency = 27.75 gp
Victory Malt 34 gp x 75% efficiency = 25.5 gp
Crystal 40 34 gp x 75% efficiency = 25.5 gp

So we have 640 gp to work with in the recipe.

640 x 75% (Maris Otter %) = 480 gp / 27.75 gp = 17.3
640 x 20% (Victory Malt %) = 128 gp / 25.5 gp = 5.01
640 x 5% (Crystal 40 %) = 32 gp / 25.5 gp = 1.25


So for a 10 gallon recipe at 75% efficiency final recipe:

British Pale Ale
OG: 1.064

17.3 lbs Maris Otter
5 lbs Victory Malt
1.25 lbs Crystal 40

Hope this doesn't make it more confusing for you.

sweetcell said:

i, and Jamil Z, disagree with you

you get 100% efficiency from crystal malts. they don't require conversion (which is what efficiency is measuring).

Click to expand...

Ya I don't remember hearing that and it doesn't really make sense to me either. 100% efficiency would mean the grain is 100% fermentable and crystal malts are most definitely not.

woozy said:

... sigh ... can someone point me to a recipe that is given in only percentages so I can work my way through one of these...

~~~~~~~
And, geez, how does this relate to hops *EVERY* recipe I've seen so far has given given hops quanitity with a *specific* volume in mind.

Click to expand...

Sure, I gave a recipe already. But I'll give you another.

I made this English IPA last week:
Pale Malt, Maris Otter 77.8 %
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L 6.5 %
Victory Malt 6.5 %
Wheat Malt 4.3 %
Wheat, Torrified 4.3 %
Acid Malt 0.5 %

OG 1.060 11 gallon batch (finished batch size).

As far as hopping, you often get those in exact quantity and with a specific volume as IBUs don't "translate" to hops flavor and aroma. For IBUs, yes.

As an example, in the recipe I posted, a brewpub might have the same grainbill and %s, but then say "bitter to 34 IBUs with the 60 minute hops and then use xx pounds for flavor and xx pounds for aroma" and mention their brewhouse size. Then you can just divide for the actual hops amounts.

Yooper said:

Sure, I gave a recipe already. But I'll give you another.

Click to expand...

I meant I wanted to see what was typically given in a recipe. Most recipes I've seen are "casual" and give a volume size as well as specific grain amounts (and thus are assuming an efficiency). I wanted a typically recipe that didn't do this and gave percentages and original gravity.

In particular, I was wondering if they gave the grain bill's PPG. (which would save the poor brewer a lot of time.

I made this English IPA last week:
Pale Malt, Maris Otter 77.8 %
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L 6.5 %
Victory Malt 6.5 %
Wheat Malt 4.3 %
Wheat, Torrified 4.3 %
Acid Malt 0.5 %


OG 1.060 11 gallon batch (finished batch size).

Click to expand...

So your recipe *does* specify batch size. (Which I'll need for the hops, right?)

So I'd have to look up the PPG of these grains and thus calculate the combine PPG of this grain-bill, right? And then I'd use the magic formula

Total grain in lbs = o.g. gravity points * volume/PPG* efficiency

Right?

but then say "bitter to 34 IBUs with the 60 minute hops and then use xx pounds for flavor and xx pounds for aroma" and mention their brewhouse size. Then you can just divide for the actual hops amounts.

Click to expand...

So when talking flavor and aroma hops, a recipe *does* specify volume size then, yes?

Thank you for your patience. Just trying to get this all to gel right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper
Sure, I gave a recipe already. But I'll give you another.
I meant I wanted to see what was typically given in a recipe. Most recipes I've seen are "casual" and give a volume size as well as specific grain amounts (and thus are assuming an efficiency). I wanted a typically recipe that didn't do this and gave percentages and original gravity.

In particular, I was wondering if they gave the grain bill's PPG. (which would save the poor brewer a lot of time.

Quote:
I made this English IPA last week:
Pale Malt, Maris Otter 77.8 %
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L 6.5 %
Victory Malt 6.5 %
Wheat Malt 4.3 %
Wheat, Torrified 4.3 %
Acid Malt 0.5 %


OG 1.060 11 gallon batch (finished batch size).
So your recipe *does* specify batch size. (Which I'll need for the hops, right?)

So I'd have to look up the PPG of these grains and thus calculate the combine PPG of this grain-bill, right? And then I'd use the magic formula

Total grain in lbs = o.g. gravity points * volume/PPG* efficiency

Right?



Quote:
but then say "bitter to 34 IBUs with the 60 minute hops and then use xx pounds for flavor and xx pounds for aroma" and mention their brewhouse size. Then you can just divide for the actual hops amounts.
So when talking flavor and aroma hops, a recipe *does* specify volume size then, yes?

Thank you for your patience. Just trying to get this all to gel right.
__________________
Why cook a standing rib roast for eight when for the same amount of effort you could cook for twenty?

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Whew that's alot for my old brain to process. It's time like these when I knew the money I spent on Beersmith was worth the price of a batch of beer

OP, look what you've started

Ramarok said:

Hope this doesn't make it more confusing for you.

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Brilliant! Clear! Well-done! Perfect!

....unless you are a nit-picking pig-headed mathematician named woozy... *sigh*

So

My only confusion was your use of units and what exactly where they measuring.

"10 gal x 64 gp (gravity points from the OG) = 640 gp"

Doesn't actually make sense from a mathematical point of view. You can multiply gals by gp and get gp. You'd have to get an abstract unit gp-gal which would mean the amount of sugars to give a gallon one gravity point. This is a specific amount of sugar.

"Maris Otter 37 gp x 75% efficiency = 27.75 gp"

Nit-picky me had to wonder where this magic number 37 came from and what it means and why it's so convienient to pounds and gallons. It can't *actually* mean maris otter has 37 gravity points because marris otter isn't a liquid with a specific gravity of 1.037!

I researched and saw it meant simply were maris otter to be *perfectly* mashed than one lb would yield sugars which when in a 1 gallon water solution would have 37 gp. (And this is because Maris Otter is 80% sugar and sugar itself when a lb is added to a gallon has a gp of 46.31 and 80% x 46.31 is 37. All these measurements come from multiplying the percentage sugar yield by 46.31 which is specific for sugar in lbs to a gallon. Ant *thats* why the units fit!)

So technically it is 37 gp/(pound/gal) or 37 PPG. (37 points per lb rendered into a gallon). But it's easier to think of the as 37 gp-gals/lb(that is 37 units of sugar [enough to make a gallon 1 point higher] per lb).

*NOW* the units make sense:

64 gp * 10 gallons = 640 gp-gals = 640 units of sugar
Maris Otter yields 37 PPG x 75% efficiency = 27.75 PPG = 27.75 units of sugar per pound.

640 gp-gals x 75% (Maris Otter %) = 480 gp-gal from Maris Otter

so 480 units of sugar come from Marris Otter which yields 27.75 units per pound so...

The total weight of Maris Otter is 480 gp-gal/27.74 gp/lb/gal = 17.3 lbs.

At least the units make sense to a wierdo like me.

===
I know. I'm a nit-picker.

I apologize Woozy, when I wrote the post I couldn't quite remember that PPG was actually the correct term to use. That's what happens when you've been up for 20 hours.

Don't apologize. I'm being the obtuse and picky one.

*most* people get confused when you get into math specifics. I'm the only one who gets confused when you don't. Figuring this out was my research for today. I didn't know how to do this before.

In short: gravity points represent proportion of sugar. Multiplying gravity points by volume in gallons gives you a total amount sugar needed for your batch (but measured in some sort of point unit). You get this sugars from grains. Each grain has a potential measured in PPG. But you'll only achieve your efficiency times this potential in PPG and this amount is how much you'll get from a pound. Take you total required units of sugar and divide by the amount of sugar you get from each pound. And that's the total poundage you need. Easy-peasy.

woozy said:

Don't apologize. I'm being the obtuse and picky one.

*most* people get confused when you get into math specifics. I'm the only one who gets confused when you don't. Figuring this out was my research for today. I didn't know how to do this before.

In short: gravity points represent proportion of sugar. Multiplying gravity points by volume in gallons gives you a total amount sugar needed for your batch (but measured in some sort of point unit). You get this sugars from grains. Each grain has a potential measured in PPG. But you'll only achieve your efficiency times this potential in PPG and this amount is how much you'll get from a pound. Take you total required units of sugar and divide by the amount of sugar you get from each pound. And that's the total poundage you need. Easy-peasy.

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Wow, forget your Ritalin today?

TNGabe said:

Wow, forget your Ritalin today?

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My shrink and I had a falling out and it's pistols at dawn. So my ritalin pipe-line is very tightly regulated.

Why do you ask.

The easiest way I know of is to use Promash.
Start off by entering the recipe, but enter the %age of grain as the weight, so 4.5 % is entered as 4.5 lbs or 4.5 KG, if you preferred.
Next adjust the batch size until the required OG is achieved.
Next click the lock ingredients to batch size, and enter the required batch size, and the recipe is automatically scaled.

-a.