EZ Water Calculator 3.0

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Some dark crystal and roast malts contain an appreciable amount of acid. If you use those in what I personally consider to be sensible quantities you shouldn't have low mash pH and it shouldn't be necessary to add chalk, bicarbonate or lime. But as home brewers are experimenters they sometimes want to use proportions of these in more than what I consider sensible quantities and in those cases mash pH can be low and alkali must be added to the brewing water if it isn't already sufficiently alkaline.
 
How would I handle flaked rice in the spreadsheet?

I'm planning on brewing a Cream Ale; 80% Pils, 20% Minute Rice.

Thanks!
 
Hi,

Thanks for the calculator! I'm just getting into water chemistry and this tool is a very helpful! One (probably dumb) question: I don't have to enter my water's PH anywhere? Or am I just not seeing where to enter it?

Thanks,
Mike
 
Correct - you don't enter your water's pH as (as backwards as it seems), it doesn't really matter. It's the alkalinity that matters.

Kal
 
Hey. I am just starting to learn about water chemistry and adjustments. Have used the calculator on two pale ales and now want to use it for a porter. It was mentioned earlier in this thread that you can use the northern brewer website to help categorize each grain type (ie. base, crystal malt, roasted/toasted malt or other). I am trying to input english black malt and english chocolate malt but the northern brewer website classifies each of them as "flaked/adjunct." Should I input these into the spreadsheet as "other" or should I categorize it as a "roasted/toasted" or should I put it in as a "crystal" and insert the Lovibond number? I would assume that each is a "roasted/toasted" but that is not how northern brewer has them categorized. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.
PJM
 
PJM said:
Hey. I am just starting to learn about water chemistry and adjustments. Have used the calculator on two pale ales and now want to use it for a porter. It was mentioned earlier in this thread that you can use the northern brewer website to help categorize each grain type (ie. base, crystal malt, roasted/toasted malt or other). I am trying to input english black malt and english chocolate malt but the northern brewer website classifies each of them as "flaked/adjunct." Should I input these into the spreadsheet as "other" or should I categorize it as a "roasted/toasted" or should I put it in as a "crystal" and insert the Lovibond number? I would assume that each is a "roasted/toasted" but that is not how northern brewer has them categorized. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.
PJM
Click to expand...

Use "Roasted/Toasted" for black and chocolate malt.

When brewing stouts & porters, I plan for a mash pH in the 5.55 range (room temp, 10 minutes into mash) and it usually comes in lower, but not below 5.4. My tap water has high alkalinity so those beers usually take a mix of tap water & DI for the mash, 100% RO for sparging always.
 
Thanks DSmith. Seems like a good idea to sort of shoot for the upper end of the mash pH range when using darker malts.

I'd love some feedback on my water and how to adjust it for a Porter. Like I said, I'm new to this and don't really know what are the most important factors to consider when building water for a porter. Numbers are below:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 44.1
Mg: 11.6
Na: 36.8
Cl: 54.3
SO4: 106
HCO3: 57.7

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4.9075 / 5.08
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 12.8

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 4 / 4.1406011207
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 103 / 103
Mg: 12 / 12
Na: 37 / 37
Cl: 158 / 158
SO4: 106 / 106
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.49 / 1.49

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 58
RA: -23
Estimated pH: 5.55
(room temp)


Thanks for any input. PJM
 
You are under the mistaken thought that you can make this water more malt focused by increasing the chloride content and altering the sulfate/chloride ratio. Unfortunately, the sulfate content in that tap water is too high to enable that. All you are doing with the calcium chloride addition is making the water more minerally. 158 ppm chloride with high sulfate content is on its way to a minerally taste.

Diluting that tap water to reduce the sulfate content and THEN adding chloride is more likely to improve the malt perception and avoid minerally perception. The water should be in the background of most beers, not apparent.
 
That is exactly what I was trying to do. Thank you for the response. So how much RO water should I add? What sort of chloride to sulfate ratio should I shoot for?
 
The ratio is generally irrelevant. Its best to focus on the actual concentrations and not the ratio. Dilute with enough RO or distilled water to bring the sulfate to a desirable level for the beer you are brewing. If its going to be a malt focused beer, then it may be a significant dilution or complete replacement. In more hop focused beers, it may require no dilution. There are better guides to brewing water adjustment. You may want to consider them.
 
Say I using my brewing software to design my recipe and I'm using roughly 80% pale malt and 20% white wheat malt...I plan on making a blonde summer beer.

I take that and plug it in to the EZ water calculator and use 1.4g Cacl. Chloride to bump my CA ppm to 50...The water in San Francisco is pretty soft to start with so I'm not adding any other salts.

But my pH is too high at 5.79...I decide to use 5 ounces (3.5% of the grist) of acidulated malt to bring the pH down to 5.44, a range I'm comfortable with.

Once I input the acidulated malt in to my brewing software is adjusts my mash and sparge water volumes slightly. Should I then go back in to the EZ water spread sheet and re-adjust my mash and sparge water volumes?
 
HELP!!!

Ok, so it's brew day and my first time building from RO water. I'm brewing a robust porter and using ez water calc 3.0. I plugged zeros into the whole water profile and then inserted my malts with their weight. estimated pH says 5.50. Does that mean I don't need to put anything into the water to hit a good mash pH? Basically, after I put in my grist and RO water profile, I have NO CLUE where to go from here. :confused::(. Feeling very frustrated despite needing to RDWHAHB!
 
That's exactly what it means and that is not an unreasonable prediction provided (there's always a clause like this, isnt' there) that the spreadsheet contains a reasonable model of the particular malts you are using. If you are going to be brewing beers like this frequently you will want to get a pH meter to check up on the spreadsheet's predictions.
 
Wow! Thank you SOOOO much! I have a blue lab pH meter that I use for work. So, I'm golden there. Just pull a sample at 15 min in, cool it, and verify pH, correct? I have gypsum and chalk on hand should I need adjustments. Any other recommendations, as I'll be running down the road to the LHBS to grab my forgotten muslin bags and can grab other salts and etc. while I'm there if need be.

P.S. I did notice a few red numbers at the bottom where Palmers recommendations are as what I had put in so far was just my grain bill, RO water profile, and quantities of water. No salts. If I add in salts to make these numbers sync with Palmer, will my pH be throw out of whack then? Sorry, total confused and frustrated noob here, lol.

Again, thanks a ton!
 
More thinking on my part. Syncing those Palmer numbers may not affect pH but do more for rounding flavors. Am I correct on that and just answered my own question?
 
Budnbrew,

I haven't used this particular water additions calculator; however, I would suggest that you avoid using chalk to raise your pH. Instead, use pickling lime or baking soda. The chalk will not dissolve very easily so it is difficult to dose correctly.

I have used baking soda (it is what I had in my kitchen). I recently found some "Cal" in a Mexican market to use as my pickling lime addition (not too many people making pickles in the Los Angeles area but there lots of places selling Cal). The advantage of the calcium hydroxide is that it supplies calcium as well as raising pH. Baking soda also raises the pH but it brings sodium to the party instead if calcium.

Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
BudnBrew said:
More thinking on my part. Syncing those Palmer numbers may not affect pH but do more for rounding flavors. Am I correct on that and just answered my own question?
Click to expand...

Given that you have access to a pH meter try making a mini-mash before brew day and checking the pH of that. If it is OK then you should be OK for the main mash too.

Given that it is RO water you are using you will definitely want to get some chloride in there are a bit of calcium won't hurt either. Add half a tsp to a tsp of calcium chloride to each 5 gal brewing water. Sulfate is a another matter. You may find it desirable and you may not. I suggest brewing without it the first time. Then taste the beer as is and with wee bits of calcium sulfate (or sodium sulfate if you can get it) added to see how sulfate effects the flavor. Use it if you think there is an improvement - don't if you don't.
 
Excellent! I've been reason things lately in regards to the drawbacks of chalk. I'll grab salts to go the other route when I head up to the LHBS real quick in a sec. I'll probably grab the other salts listed in EZ Water Calc in case someone else chimes in in regards to my previous question regarding the red Palmer numbers. Thanks, Pliny!!!
 
PlinyTheMiddleAged said:
Budnbrew,

I haven't used this particular water additions calculator; however, I would suggest that you avoid using chalk to raise your pH. Instead, use pickling lime or baking soda. The chalk will not dissolve very easily so it is difficult to dose correctly.

I have used baking soda (it is what I had in my kitchen). I recently found some "Cal" in a Mexican market to use as my pickling lime addition (not too many people making pickles in the Los Angeles area but there lots of places selling Cal). The advantage of the calcium hydroxide is that it supplies calcium as well as raising pH. Baking soda also raises the pH but it brings sodium to the party instead if calcium.

Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
Click to expand...


Just a quick thought. In regards to pickling lime and backing soda additions to increase pH, are we talking tsp's or tbls's at a time? Just a starting reference.
 
BudnBrew said:
Just a quick thought. In regards to pickling lime and backing soda additions to increase pH, are we talking tsp's or tbls's at a time? Just a starting reference.
Click to expand...


I don't have my notes in front of me, but I was doing a small batch (targeted 3 gallons in the fermenter and got closer to 4 from using too much sparge water). I started with distilled water and for my grain bill, I think I used on the order of 0.2 grams of baking soda per gallon of strike water - none in the sparge water of course. I don't know how that translates to volume - less than a teaspoon I'm guessing.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
Hedo-Rick said:
Say I using my brewing software to design my recipe and I'm using roughly 80% pale malt and 20% white wheat malt...I plan on making a blonde summer beer.

I take that and plug it in to the EZ water calculator and use 1.4g Cacl. Chloride to bump my CA ppm to 50...The water in San Francisco is pretty soft to start with so I'm not adding any other salts.

But my pH is too high at 5.79...I decide to use 5 ounces (3.5% of the grist) of acidulated malt to bring the pH down to 5.44, a range I'm comfortable with.

Once I input the acidulated malt in to my brewing software is adjusts my mash and sparge water volumes slightly. Should I then go back in to the EZ water spread sheet and re-adjust my mash and sparge water volumes?
Click to expand...

Anyone have a thought?
 
Probably not necessary. Assuming you are adding the sauermalz as opposed to replacing 3.5% of the existing grist you could just increase mash and sparge water volumes by 3.5% and have the same water to grist ratio.
 
I'm going to agree with ajdelange. When I brewed yesterday, I tweaked numbers a few times in Beersmith and kept going back into the calculator in changing those volume numbers. None of the rest of the values changed.

I do also want to give a HUGE thank you to ajdelange and PlinyTheMiddleAged!!! With your help I was able to figure out the calculator and properly build my water profile! Not only that, I also hit my targeted mash pH DEAD ON, subsequently hitting my pre-boil gravity dead on as well! Brought my efficiency up 10 points from 65 to 75%! I also included some advice from the great Denny which helped as well. Thanks a ton for the help! It is greatly appreciated!:mug:
 
DSmith said:
I've modified EZ water to scale the mash to a total of 100g and report the test water needed in mL (based on the actual planned water volume/weight ratio; typically 1.5 qt/lb). The grain is ground fine in a coffee grinder and mashed for 10-15 min in mason jars at 150F-160F (pic below). The crush isn't the same but the data has correlated well to actual mashes measured at 10-15 min.

One of these mashes can be done while heating the mash water to determine if any acid will be required for brewing a beer you have no experience with.

I have individual base grain pH in distilled water for:
Crisp Maris Otter
Rahr American 2-Row
Weyermann Pilsner
Castle Pilsner
Global Malt Dark Munich (10-14L)

If there are interest in those, I'd prefer to check them all one again and post the results. The pH meter is a Hanna 98128, 2 point calibration prior to testing room temperature samples and calibration verification after the readings.

View attachment 102567
Click to expand...

I have interest in your results of different base grain pH readings. Have you had a chance to check them all again?
 
I have data on a couple of malts:

Weyermann Pneumatic Pils 5.6227 -40.69 14.821 -10.008
Chocolate 600L Crisp 4.69875 -76.43 -0.404 -3.837
Caramel 80L Briess 4.76565 -89.684 31.837 -10.056
Weyermann Floor Pils 5.85475 -31.299 3.869 -1.986
Weyermann Sauermalz 3.6165 -292.09 68.443 -5.3985
Briess Roast Barley 300L 4.69825 -35.351 -38.11 6.8614
Muntons Maris Otter 5.84177 -46.094 7.6213 -2.5325
Crisp Maris Otter 5.6894 -46.589 6.3516 -2.623
Flaked Barley 5.6437 -36.17 10.342 -2.48

The first number is the DI mash pH (pHDI) corrected to 20 °C (the extra decimal places come from the temperature correction algorithm and are not to be taken seriously). The other three numbers, a1, a2 and a3 let you calculate the amount of acid released by (negative number) or absorbed by (positive number) a kg of the malt at 20 °C and pH from

mEq/kg = a1*(pH - pHDI) + a2*(pH - pHDI)^2 + a3*(pH - pHDI)^3

Kai Troester did a bunch of measurements from which we can estimate a1 (but not a2 and a3). Doing this adds the following to the list:

Munich II Weyermann 5.54 -35 0 0
Munich I Weyermann 5.44 -32.30769231 0 0
Munich Light Franco Belges 5.62 -37.5 0 0
Vienna Weyermann 5.65 -32 0 0
Cara Munich III Weyermann 4.92 -40 0 0
Caramunich II Weyermann 4.71 -49.49494949 0 0
Cara Munich I Weyermann 5.1 -37.33333333 0 0
Cara Aroma Weyermann 4.48 -60.98360656 0 0
Crystal 10 L Briess 5.38 -30 0 0
Crystal 20L Briess 5.22 -29.58333333 0 0
Crystal 40 L Briess 5.02 -37.64705882 0 0
Crystal 60 L Briess 4.66 -48.46153846 0 0
Crystal 90 L Briess 4.77 -48.38709677 0 0
Crystal 120 L Briess 4.75 -48.42105263 0 0
Crystal 150 L Briess 4.48 -49.01639344 0 0
Roast Barley Briess 4.68 -38.82352941 0 0
Black Patent Briess 4.62 -41.48148148 0 0
Carafa III Weyerman 4.81 -39.7752809 0 0
Carafa I Weyermann 4.71 -42.42424242 0 0
Carafa I (sp) Weyermann 4.73 -47.83505155 0 0
Biscuit 5.08 -32.58064516 0 0
Sauermalz 3.43 -138.8546256 0 0
Sauermalz Weyermann 3.44 -158.4955752 0 0

Since these specialty malts are used in relatively small amounts relative to base malts one can get a pretty good estimate of mash proton deficit as a function of mash pH despite no knowledge of a2 and a3 and only an approximate value of a1 and, if one knows his water properties, mash pH. Again all the extra decimal places come from transforming Kai's numbers into a1 and are not (beyond, say, the first two) valid.
 
TH, EZ water spreadsheet help us to calculate how many salts we should add to adjust our water. So, some salts have H2O on their formation (hydrates).

My doubt is: should I adjust the salt mass to considere this hidratation? I suspect that mass is to pure component (CaSO4, MgSO4, CaCl2....) and when I measure, for example 3 g of CaSO4 this mass is not CaSO4, but CaSO4.2H2O. Make sense my doubt?

Thanks,

Fabiano
 
Hey guys, I'm brewing a brown ale this weekend using victory and quick oats (latter being lightly oven toasted). Early in this thread, victory is categorized as a roasted/toasted malt and oats as base/2 Row. Is this still the consensus with EZ Water calculator? Thanks in advance.
 
Borisfa said:
My doubt is: should I adjust the salt mass to considere this hidratation? I suspect that mass is to pure component (CaSO4, MgSO4, CaCl2....) and when I measure, for example 3 g of CaSO4 this mass is not CaSO4, but CaSO4.2H2O. Make sense my doubt?
Click to expand...

Yes, very much so, at least with CaCl2. Epsom salts a gypsum are quite stable with respect to water of hydration at CaSO4.2H2O and MgSO4.7H2O and spreadsheets should be set up for those levels of water content. CaCl2 is, quite conversely, very unstable in this regard and will pick up so much water that eventually it becomes a syrup. Programs should call for CaCl2.0H2O for that reason and then it is up to the brewer to determine how much water is in his calcium chloride, or rather the other way round. He should make a solution and determine how much CaCl2 is in it. This is pretty easy to do, fortunately, by measuring the specific gravity of the solution as described in the sticky at the top of this topic.

It is relatively easy to see what form of the salt a spreadsheet uses. Tell the spreadsheet you are adding 100 mg/L of a salt to 1 L of water and calculate the concentration of calcium for CaCl2.0H2O, CaCl2.1H2O, CaCl2.2H2O etc. When you find a match between what you calculate and what the spreadsheet calculates you have determined the hydration form.
 
ajdelange said:
NaCl does not pick up appreciable water of hydration.
Click to expand...

I meant how can we add it to the EZ Water calculator? I see it's not included while other water calculators do have it. I would like to add chloride without adding sulfate.

I'm very new to water chemistry so please correct me if I'm speaking incorrectly. On my next brew I would like to target a water profile.
 

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