Copper surfaces reduce infections

I read an article in Science News that describes how copper surfaces in an operating room can cut infections down by 50%. Just having copper surfaces, such as doorknobs, bedframes, etc, made a huge difference.

Not sure about the policy here about posting links, but it was a major hospital study.

I'm betting that copper surfaces would help cut down on beer infections too :fro:

edit: I used to have to use copper-based paint on my sailboat in the Gulf, to keep the critters off. Copper is somehow toxic.

I've never heard that exactly. However, copper is a good yeast nutrient. Some brewers have been known to put a short (1" long or so) piece of copper tube in the boil. A slight amount will be dissolved into the acidic wort and provide some yeast nutrient.

tyzippers said:

I've never heard that exactly. However, copper is a good yeast nutrient. Some brewers have been known to put a short (1" long or so) piece of copper tube in the boil. A slight amount will be dissolved into the acidic wort and provide some yeast nutrient.

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I do that with all my beers (two 1" pieces, in fact). Don't actually know if it does anything, but I'm pretty happy with the results so far!

My grandfather used to use a coil of copper wire and a coil of some other metal (zinc?) in his swimming pool to keep it clean. Rarely used any chemicals and he had crystal clear water. So I can believe that copper may help in sanitization. Though I definitely would not rely on it over using StarSan and being careful with contamination.

DrunkleJon said:

My grandfather used to use a coil of copper wire and a coil of some other metal (zinc?) in his swimming pool to keep it clean. Rarely used any chemicals and he had crystal clear water. So I can believe that copper may help in sanitization. Though I definitely would not rely on it over using StarSan and being careful with contamination.

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On a related note, I believe zinc is also a good yeast nutrient. I think.

Copper dust is used in organic farming as a fungicide

wailingguitar said:

Copper dust is used in organic farming as a fungicide

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Huh. I did not know that. My wife is all into organic produce and whatnot. I've never heard her mention that. Interesting.

tyzippers said:

Huh. I did not know that. My wife is all into organic produce and whatnot. I've never heard her mention that. Interesting.

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People think 'organic' means pesticide/chemical free... um, no. Google chemicals approved organic and you will find a list of stuff, some innocuous, some less so. I am not trying to start a huge debate here, but I would also suggest having a look at the Organic episode of Penn and Teller's Bull**** (it can be found on youtube). Some surprising information...

I recently discovered that using copper post-fermentation is a big no-no. Evidently it is somewhat toxic to us too.

Regarding copper being toxic to humans. All metals are toxic to humans in the corrects dosage. The amount dissolved during the boil of copper tubing or dissolution after fermentation will never reach that toxic dose.

Going back a few years to microbiology class..LOL.

Check out the OLIGODYNAMIC effects of metals. Silver is used a lot more today (airline water tanks for an example)than other metals but copper does exhibit similar qualities.

As to the effects of copper in your brew..????

bosco

dlaramie08 said:

Regarding copper being toxic to humans. All metals are toxic to humans in the corrects dosage. The amount dissolved during the boil of copper tubing or dissolution after fermentation will never reach that toxic dose.

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I was told that it was fine to use copper pre-fermentation but not to use copper tubing in a jockey box because the carbonation reacts with it.

I think it would only be an issue if you left your beer sitting in the tubing of said jockey box for some large period of time. Running beer through it would not corrode it quickly enough to dissolve a toxic dose of copper. I just wouldn't leave beer in it for long periods of time. But that shouldn't happen anyway since its a jockey box.

tyzippers said:

I've never heard that exactly. However, copper is a good yeast nutrient. Some brewers have been known to put a short (1" long or so) piece of copper tube in the boil. A slight amount will be dissolved into the acidic wort and provide some yeast nutrient.

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It's not so much a yeast nutrient. The positive effect it has on beers is mainly that it binds with various sulfur compounds, keeping them out of the finished beer.

Edit: in fact, if I recall correctly, it's actually bad for yeast, which is the primary reason for not using it after pitching. A poster here said it's used as a fungicide, and yeast being a fungus, that adds some credibility to the idea.

Copper does make a fair fungicide. Most commonly it is applied as a copper sulfate solution as maintenance. Copper Hydroxide is also used as a drastic stop loss measure. Copper is also used in the control of vermin and other agricultural pests, most often as an agent to assure proper administration of high velocity lead injections. I'm not an organic farmer but do recommend organic methods when possible.

So yeah, I looked into it and it appears I DID remember correctly. Copper is apparently extremely toxic to yeast. Though it seems yeast cells can be pretty tolerant when the cell membrane doesn't contain fatty acids, the main way homebrewers would be able to affect that would be to use liquid yeast and not oxygenate their wort, which is obviously less than ideal.

There's really no compelling reason to ferment in the presence of copper. At worst, it's very harmful, and at best, it's useless - though (if the goal is tasty beer AND healthy yeast) the "best" conditions would require poor practices such as not oxygenating, which means that in practice, it's harmful either way. It's certainly not a yeast nutrient! Where do homebrewers pick up such horrible "facts"? How does misinformation like this even get STARTED? :scratches head:

emjay said:

So yeah, I looked into it and it appears I DID remember correctly. Copper is apparently extremely toxic to yeast. Though it seems yeast cells can be pretty tolerant when the cell membrane doesn't contain fatty acids, the main way homebrewers would be able to affect that would be to use liquid yeast and not oxygenate their wort, which is obviously less than ideal.

There's really no compelling reason to ferment in the presence of copper. At worst, it's very harmful, and at best, it's useless - though (if the goal is tasty beer AND healthy yeast) the "best" conditions would require poor practices such as not oxygenating, which means that in practice, it's harmful either way. It's certainly not a yeast nutrient! Where do homebrewers pick up such horrible "facts"? How does misinformation like this even get STARTED? :scratches head:

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Copper, like zinc and magnesium, is an essential micronutrient. In large enough concentrations these micronutrients will be toxic, but they're needed in very small doses for healthy yeast cells.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8r...a=X&ei=h41qUfCRJZPy0wGj2ICAAg&ved=0CGMQ6AEwCQ

(second full paragraph)

JLem said:

Copper, like zinc and magnesium, is an essential micronutrient. In large enough concentrations these micronutrients will be toxic, but they're needed in very small doses for healthy yeast cells.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8rR-6Prg3TcC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=copper+yeast+nutrient&source=bl&ots=zxlptnhc6s&sig=FhlhFZX8PDiuAZvI5JHROa3V0OY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=h41qUfCRJZPy0wGj2ICAAg&ved=0CGMQ6AEwCQ

(second full paragraph)

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Sorry, I wanted to keep it as simple as possible. The bottom line is that only trace amounts are needed and so it's extremely unlikely the yeast are going to need supplementation, which is why I didn't expand on it, though I certainly entertained the idea. Even if for some reason the yeast could use a bit more copper, most methods (for homebrewers) would almost inevitably result in considerably higher than optimal levels.

I think it would be a mistake to try to ferment in the presence of copper. But the hospital saw far fewer infections even with some copper just being in the room, like doorknobs, etc. Makes me wonder if a copper wort chiller might be a really good idea.

I don't think he was fermenting, I believe it was a jockey box setup.

dlaramie08 said:

I don't think he was fermenting, I believe it was a jockey box setup.

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Who?

bleme was. We got a little off track. Good discussion though I believe.

Didn't some of the old breweries use copper tanks?

I was flipping channels last night and it had some moonshiners that were mashing/boiling in copper tanks.

bleme said:

Didn't some of the old breweries use copper tanks?

I was flipping channels last night and it had some moonshiners that were mashing/boiling in copper tanks.

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Yep, copper kettles were (and still are, to a smaller extent) widely used (I believe it originally got popular because of its excellent heat conductivity) and, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, are even preferred by some because the copper will bind to sulfur compounds and drop them out of the beer. However, copper kettles are increasingly not even being permitted in commercial breweries because it's not quite as easy to clean and sanitize as stainless steel is. But as a homebrewers, there are many ways to emulate the beneficial effects of copper kettles - just drop some copper in the kettle, be it CLEAN copper pipe or even pennies! Just MAKE SURE that the copper isn't able to touch your electric elements if you're using an electric brewery (DO NOT TAKE ANY CHANCES).

Once you pitch, though, you don't want to keep exposing it to copper surfaces.

I know that many aquarists (and my local fish store) use copper to treat fish for infections and parasites. In the right dosage, it's fine for fish, but harmful to invertebrates. I should think that yeast fall into that category.

The antimicrobial properties of copper are well known, and they apply to yeast as well.

http://aem.asm.org/content/77/5/1541.full

The mechanism of killing is based mostly on wet or dry contact. The homebrewing setup does not quite provide the right conditions for the use of copper as an antimicrobial. Although, like the others have said, it could be beneficial on the micronutrient level.

I know you are suppose to tin your copper sauce pans to avoid Copperiedus (Copper toxicity) from acidic foods. Silver is often used in liquid cooled computers as a fungicide. You put a little coil of it in the tubing, but that isn't really a food grade application. I think its smarter to fight infection through proper sanitation procedure.