cold crashing confusion... *sigh*

I'm reading utterly contradictary things on how long you can/should cold crash. Between 1 day an "two weeks should do it".

So I got a California Common. At 9 and 12 days fermenting it's S.G. had stabilized and all seemed good to go to go for bottling. But, !man!, there were *oodles* of yeastie floaties all over the place. Big white hunkie speckles of 'em! So I thought. What the hey, it's a two gallon batch so I can pick the whole thing up and put it in the fridge and try this cold-crashing biz and see what all the talk is about. Well, it's been two days and ... what should I do now???

After two days most of the gunk should have settled to the bottom. If your beer is still hazy, then that's probably some proteins that just aren't going to settle. If all the biggies are gone, I'd bottle/keg.

^^^ This

Can you cold crash with dryhop or should they be taken out?

On a very slightly related question, should I have been straining my wort all this time? I've just been figuring everything (cold break, yeast particles, whirlfloc weird thingies, etc.) would just settle out and it's just easier this way.

By the way, this was the batch where a particularly hunky yeast raft looked a teensy bit like an infection to my newby eyes... This yeast (Wyeast California Ale and the first liquid yeast I've ever used) really seems ... speckly.

jonnyp1980 said:

Can you cold crash with dryhop or should they be taken out?

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You would want to cold crash after your designated dry hop time. You can keep them in and they will sink to the bottom with the yeast.

Oh, I *see* the problem now.

This beer had *so* much flocculation that the bottom layer of trub is higher than the spigot so when I pour a sample to look at it's full of trub that doesn't represent the beer on the whole. (Cold crashing just made it *worse* cause now there's even *more* on the bottom which I'm drawing from.)

Hmm, not sure if this is going to be a problem with bottling. Probably not. Some trub (a lot actually) will get in the bottling bucket but that was bound to happen a little anyway. Maybe I should siphon to the bottling bucket rather than spigot. I hate siphoning and I'm not very good and it. I'm not sure the shape of my keg-like container is condusive to siphoning and the anti-trub cap of my racking cane actually has less clearance than my spigot does...

jonnyp1980 said:

Can you cold crash with dryhop or should they be taken out?

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I'd finish dryhopping, remove them, then crash. That would give you the clearest beer. I just throw the dry hops into my carboy, so I can't removed them, but at least they settle to the bottom.

woozy said:

On a very slightly related question, should I have been straining my wort all this time?

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I've never done that. If you are sanitary, it can't hurt, but I think it's wasted effort and mess.

woozy said:

On a very slightly related question, should I have been straining my wort all this time? I've just been figuring everything (cold break, yeast particles, whirlfloc weird thingies, etc.) would just settle out and it's just easier this way.

By the way, this was the batch where a particularly hunky yeast raft looked a teensy bit like an infection to my newby eyes... This yeast (Wyeast California Ale and the first liquid yeast I've ever used) really seems ... speckly.

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You don't need to strain your wort, though you may improve your results by not transferring some of that stuff to the fermenter. One way to do that is, after cooling, let the wort sit undisturbed for 20-30 mins. Then rack the wort into your fermenter, leaving the accumulated stuff on the bottom of the kettle. You'll lose some overall volume this way, so I adjust my batch size by a half gallon to account for the loss. Obviously, people make good beer transferring all that stuff in, so you don't have to be too particular about how much you keep out. I shoot for keeping 80 - 90% out.

One of the best things to make is a wort chiller. Is will help settle a lot of the hot break out. It also helps it cool faster..so no infection

passedpawn said:

I'd finish dryhopping, remove them, then crash. That would give you the clearest beer. I just throw the dry hops into my carboy, so I can't removed them, but at least they settle to the bottom.

I've never done that. If you are sanitary, it can't hurt, but I think it's wasted effort and mess.

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I have whole leaf hops. Really would hate to disrupt the beer removing 20oz of hops.

Correction. Meant to say 2 oz. of hop.

woozy said:

Oh, I *see* the problem now.

This beer had *so* much flocculation that the bottom layer of trub is higher than the spigot so when I pour a sample to look at it's full of trub that doesn't represent the beer on the whole. (Cold crashing just made it *worse* cause now there's even *more* on the bottom which I'm drawing from.)

Hmm, not sure if this is going to be a problem with bottling. Probably not. Some trub (a lot actually) will get in the bottling bucket but that was bound to happen a little anyway. Maybe I should siphon to the bottling bucket rather than spigot. I hate siphoning and I'm not very good and it. I'm not sure the shape of my keg-like container is condusive to siphoning and the anti-trub cap of my racking cane actually has less clearance than my spigot does...

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Don't you have siphon?
http://morebeer.com/products/easysiphon.html

This makes siphoning easy, you really should siphon to the bottling bucket rather then using a spigot to transfer, just hold it up off the trub

What "keg-like" container with a spigot are you fermenting in?

I used an autosiphon for years to transfer from primary to secondary/keg/bottling bucket/whathaveyou and got good results but I was always to lazy to sit there and hold it above nice tigh yeast cake so I just dropped it in and it sucked up a lit bit of yeast for a few seconds and then flowed clear again. Turns out they have these lovely little clips that connect your siphon to the side of the bucket...so you can set it right above the trub and forget about it! Highly recommend that lovely little gadget.

doby said:

you really should siphon to the bottling bucket rather then using a spigot to transfer,

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Why? I hate siphoning. I don't have either an auto siphon nor a bottle topper, which would make siphoning easier, but I far far *far* prefer to use a hose hooked up to a spigot.

hillhousesawdustco said:

What "keg-like" container with a spigot are you fermenting in?

I used an autosiphon for years to transfer from primary to secondary/keg/bottling bucket/whathave... Turns out they have these lovely little clips that connect your siphon to the side of the bucket....

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I have three mr. beer little brown kegs. I use two for fermenters and one for bottling.

However I actually had all three in use for fermenting today so I had to use a stockpot as a bottling bucket. I had to siphon from the fermenter because the trub was deeper than the spigot. (A first.) And I had to siphon from the stockpot to the bottles because I was to impatient to start a new batch yesterday before bottling my odd one.

Still the siphoning went better than I thought it would. Getting the siphon going was actually pretty easy. The part I was afraid of most was stopping the stream between bottles and that was kind of hairy but the tube clamp I have actually did its job. But the stream of the siphon was so forceful and fast it was a bit daunting. But it worked.

But I like spigots a *LOT* better.

Why? I hate siphoning. I don't have either an auto siphon nor a bottle topper, which would make siphoning easier, but I far far *far* prefer to use a hose hooked up to a spigot.

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IMHO you are going about it the hard way, if you had a bottle filler you would not have to turn the spigot on and off all the time, its jjust easier for the cost of the filler worth while. Plus everytime you open and close the spigot you enter a bit of air, not ideal.

The auto siphon is really, really easy to get started and you can hold it up off the trub, no more clogged spigots or trub entering the bottling bucket. For the cost of these devices you save alot of time and problems

doby said:

IMHO you are going about it the hard way, if you had a bottle filler you would not have to turn the spigot on and off all the time, its jjust easier for the cost of the filler worth while. Plus everytime you open and close the spigot you enter a bit of air, not ideal.

The auto siphon is really, really easy to get started and you can hold it up off the trub, no more clogged spigots or trub entering the bottling bucket. For the cost of these devices you save alot of time and problems

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Mmmmmmaybe....

The auto-fillers do look kind of cool. Auto-siphon and auto-filler would be a definite if I were going to siphon.

And I could use the auto-filler with the spigot, you know. (Bottling with the siphon and *not* having an auto-filler was hairy. The siphon had a strong stream and I had only a tube clamp and my ability to pinch to stop and start the flow and it was *not* comfortable. I'm amazed I had no problem.)

Trub-line above the spigot is a rarity (so far) and I do have a siphon for those cases. I did use it rather than the spigot just for that reason. It was easy but an autosiphon would have been easier. I siphoned quite a bit of trub into the bottling bucket because I had to watch the hose clamp end (to guage whether is was sucking sanitizer or beer) and I couldn't watch the racking cane and it hit the bottom. Still that wouldn't be a problem with auto-siphon.

But you haven't convinced me that a siphon is *easier* or even different than a spigot. You *don't* get air through a spigot. (Air pressure won't allow air into a spigot track-- it'd be filled with beer instead; just like air pressure won't allow air to enter a siphon and the hose remains full of beer even when "off".) A spigot is *exactly* like a siphon in that gravity forces a steady stream of liquid through an opening.

But the auto-filler seems a good idea whether I use it with a spigot or a siphon. The stream from the siphon seemed to really aerate the beer as it gushed into the bottle and the spigot had the same issue but less so as the stream was less. The auto-filler would fix this.

The siphon had a strong stream and I had only a tube clamp and my ability to pinch to stop and start the flow and it was *not* comfortable. I'm amazed I had no problem

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Yes, thats exactly my point it works but its not comfortable.

But you haven't convinced me that a siphon is *easier* or even different than a spigot. You *don't* get air through a spigot. A spigot is *exactly* like a siphon in that gravity forces a steady stream of liquid through an opening.

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Must be me but everytime I open that spigot I get a few bubbles in the line, ain't the nd of the world and most likely not a problem but I avoid it.

But the auto-filler seems a good idea whether I use it with a spigot or a siphon. The stream from the siphon seemed to really aerate the beer as it gushed into the bottle and the spigot had the same issue but less so as the stream was less. The auto-filler would fix thi

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I use my filler with a spigot, I turn the spigot on once thats it, no trying to pinch the tube, the auto siphon I use to transfer from the fermenter to bottling bucket or in your case a clean mr beer fermenter to bottle, this would avoid trub.

I got into this hobby with mr beer and did exactly what you are doing but quickly realised there are eaiser ways that are very low cost

Well, I have to admit that the beer I brewed friday with White Labs Yeast has already flocculated up to the spigot. This is my second attempt of liquid yeast so maybe my other batches with dry yeast had lower flocculation levels.

(Which leads to the question is it normal for the fermentation to be done flocculating and the krausen to drop completely in just 48 hours? It took a [relatively] longer time to start and to be done already... well, I'm not worried yet ... but this is outside the realm I consider normal.

(But that's a question for another thread.)

Do you no longer use the Mr. Beer kegs?

Hmm, if I do get used to siphoning I could simply use a stockpot to bottle and use the third keg I have as a fermenter and increase my pipe-line by fifty percent...

(Which raises the question, if you are doing small enough (less than 3 gallons) batches is there any requirements on what I can use for a bottling bucket? will any container (e.g. a stockpot) do? I was going to use my Mr. Beer fermenter *because* it had a spigot and I wouldn't have to siphon but if siphons are easy...)

Oh a Mr. Beer Keg! Takes me back to college. I thought maybe you were fermenting in a bottling bucket (aka a bucket with a spigot) and that has always bothered my brain. The assembly of those things with the washers that dry out and whatnot just make me think they'd be ripe for infection I imagine it'd be a pain to siphon from a little Mr. Beer "keg."

Any aversion to simply stepping up to 5 gallon batches with buckets/carboys/etc? The equipment is quite standardized and cheap and doesn't really take up any more real estate than 3 one-gallon containers.

In any case there are these handy deals called bottling wands that attach to whatever hose you're using. When the end of the wand is pressed into the bottom of your beer bottle, it raises a little ball that allows the beer to float into the bottle. Release the pressure on the wand and the beer stops flowing and leaves a little headspace in your bottle for conditioning. I haven't bottled in several years but mine came with a kit and was pretty convenient from both a spigot and a siphon.

hillhousesawdustco said:

Any aversion to simply stepping up to 5 gallon batches with buckets/carboys/etc? The equipment is quite standardized and cheap and doesn't really take up any more real estate than 3 one-gallon containers.

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Yes. I don't want to.

I don't have alot of experiance with liquid yeast but have had that with dry yeast at high ferment temps.

No I no longer use my mr beer keg only because there to small, if i'm going to go to the work of brewing its going to be atleast 5 gal.

You could use any container to bottle especialy if you shipon but why not get a food grade bucket and a spigot for a couple bucks, drill a hole in it and mount the spigot.

You mentioned a pipe line, I don't know your situation but did you ever consider doing 5 gal batches? You could get a 6.5 gal fermenter, 6.5 gal bottling bucket, auto shipon, bottling wand and a kit extract kit for about (or under)100 bucks at moorebeer with there free shipping

(he or she doesn't want to)

Yep, sorry I noticed post#21 after I posted

Sorry OP

doby said:

No I no longer use my mr beer keg only because there to small, if i'm going to go to the work of brewing its going to be atleast 5 gal.

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It's not the work. It's the five weeks waiting... 5 gallons is more than I can drink. Although 18 beers is a little small for that much work.

The "for that much work you can brew fifty beers" argument doesn't really do it. After all, have you ever heard anyone argue "why cook a standing rib roast for eight when for the same amount of work you can cook one for twenty"? And it's not really true. Five gallons of all-grain is a *completely* different kettle of fish that 2-gallons all-grain and bottling 18 bottles is unpleasant. Bottling 50 is a nightmare.

You could use any container to bottle especialy if you shipon but why not get a food grade bucket and a spigot for a couple bucks, drill a hole in it and mount the spigot.

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*IF* I go to give gallons then I probably will do that. I'm just thinking the as long as I'm still in 2-gallons I have plenty of stuff that holds two gallons and for storage and convenience that I'd rather *not* dedicate one piece of equipment to it.

You mentioned a pipe line, I don't know your situation but did you ever consider doing 5 gal batches?

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Not yet. Right now my problem is I want to try many many different batches in small amounts all at once.

Once I get over the novelty of this and get more realistic timing and goals and get out of the o-mi-gawd-this-is-awesome newbie zone, Maybe I'll settle into 5 gallon batches once a month or so. Or maybe I'll drop the whole thing.

For whatever reasons for my life and for my stage right now, its two gallon batches. That's how it is now. Later... we'll see.

You could get a 6.5 gal fermenter, 6.5 gal bottling bucket, auto shipon, bottling wand and a kit extract kit for about (or under)100 bucks at moorebeer with there free shipping

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Well, I have a local home brew shop (and if the Concord Showroom of More Beer is still open More Beer is local) where I can get a bottling wand for $4.95 (I think) and I think I can get an autosiphon for about $13 (although the one I saw looked mamoth). I'll keep my eye open for carboys but I figure I'll my one when I feel I need one.

If MoreBeer in Concord still exists (the web page proudly shows testimonials from 2010 and photos from a great social event they held in 2009) I might find myself going there a lot. My LHBS doesn't seem to have the greatest supply of hops.

yeah... #21 was me being rude.

Basically, I'm not ready for 5 gallons. When I get there I'll get there but right now, I'm not. For various reasons.

It's kind of funny. During the *brewing* 1 gallon or 2 gallons seems like the perfect amount. Just the right size to handle; easy to get the timing and temp right; not overwhelming or scary obsessive looking. And if it seems small it feels like "well, I can just do another in a couple of days if I want". But then comes the sitting around for five weeks and looking at it taking up space on your counter and you feel "hurry up; get out of my way so I can start again". and then when you bottle you feel, "is this all" for all that waiting you should have at least a months supply. But then I have already brewed 6 batches (not counting the one that ending up down the drain nor a jail-cell gallon no-equiment lets see what happens behind the radiator batch) and I won't get to even *start* drinking the second batch till Fri.

woozy said:

yeah... #21 was me being rude.

Basically, I'm not ready for 5 gallons. When I get there I'll get there but right now, I'm not. For various reasons.

It's kind of funny. During the *brewing* 1 gallon or 2 gallons seems like the perfect amount. Just the right size to handle; easy to get the timing and temp right; not overwhelming or scary obsessive looking. And if it seems small it feels like "well, I can just do another in a couple of days if I want". But then comes the sitting around for five weeks and looking at it taking up space on your counter and you feel "hurry up; get out of my way so I can start again". and then when you bottle you feel, "is this all" for all that waiting you should have at least a months supply. But then I have already brewed 6 batches (not counting the one that ending up down the drain nor a jail-cell gallon no-equiment lets see what happens behind the radiator batch) and I won't get to even *start* drinking the second batch till Fri.

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No worries, old bean- if you can't be rude to a perfect stranger on the internet trying to give you advice that you asked for then the internet is clearly broken.

I don't mean to harp...but your argument against stepping up is kind of odd. Since you have to spend five weeks waiting for the beer to be ready, why not have 5 gallons ready to consume instead of 2? It takes almost the exact same time to make 2 gallons of beer as 5 (or much, much larger quantities as far as that goes) and your limiting factor seems to be the fermentation time, not the boil volume. Bottling sucks ( i haven't bottled in years outside of a few special occasions), but once you are doing it, it takes a lot less to time to set up and bottle 52 bottles once than bottle 18 bottles 2-3 times.
Mr. Beer is a fine entry point, but I promise that the 5 gallon setups are wonderfully standardized and actually use the exact same ingredients that commercial brewers do. 5 gallons isn't really any different from two unless you have physical limitations or severe space limitations.
That said- it's your brew so do whatever makes you feel good about it. But if you are rude to me again I WILL BRING DOWN THE HEAVENS AND AUTOSIPHON YOU TO HELL.

Jokes.

Hey, I wasn't that rude! And no-body wants unsolicited advice. And the advice I asked for was about cold-crashing and not quantity.

It takes five weeks to make 50 beers and then you are stuck with 50 beers for 5 weeks. If I have to wait five weeks I'd rather have three or four different beers to enjoy once I'm done. Basically I'd rather make 26 different beers in a year 26 times than 8 different beers 8 times a year.

Also you say a 5 gallon fermenter isn't any bigger than 3 one-gallon fermenters. BUt I don't have one space big enough for 3 one gallon fermenters. I have three spaces big enough of for one one-gallon fermenter..

There are *lots* of reasons 5 gallon batches just don't make any sense at all. Most of them having to do with it's just to effin' much to deal with at one time. Now I admit, arguments go both ways and 2 gallon batches have a serious drawback in apparent diminishing returns as the weeks and weeks move on. I'm sort of hoping these flurry of activity in the beginning (batch 6-- fermentation ended today; batch 4 and 5 bottle on thurs..) will lead to popping out 3 six-packs every week or two. But on the whole 2 gallons right now is the size of a batch I want.

It's turn-around that's the limiting factor; not fermentation time; nor boil volume. Turn around. And 5 gallons grinds turnaround to a halt.

I've thought it through. It makes sense. I admit sometimes I'd like to have a few extra bottles to give to the milk-man and to toss at howling cats at night but basically this is the right size batch. For now. (And fast and dirty one gallon batches are just *fun*)

I still think my rib roast analogy holds. Eight people is the size of the dinner party I want to hold. Yes, it'd be no more trouble to cook for 20 as long as I'm going through the trouble to cook for eight. But that's twelve more a***oles in my house eating my food!

Look, that's just the way I roll. I get obsessions and I like to crank, crank, crank. And then I drop them. One great opus ofter another and devoting my life to a perfect hobby of great works; one brilliant 5 gallon batch... just isn't in the stars for me.

Look, I probably will go up to 5 gallons. But it'll probably be when I've got a need of driving off of the spleen and regulating the circulation and I find myself dumpster diving for the accidental fermenting vessel. But in the meantime I'll be snarky to complacent five-galloners.

[Dang Internet emoticons! I *wanted* a semi-colon within a parenthesis! I *didn't* want a winking icon... sigh...]

woozy said:

If MoreBeer in Concord still exists (the web page proudly shows testimonials from 2010 and photos from a great social event they held in 2009) I might find myself going there a lot. My LHBS doesn't seem to have the greatest supply of hops.

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Im going to assume you are talking about Concord, California. If you are, then it still exists. I was just there this morning picking up a few odds and ends.

billybryson54 said:

Im going to assume you are talking about Concord, California. If you are, then it still exists. I was just there this morning picking up a few odds and ends.

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I'm losing my religion. I started this hobby two months ago and *immediately* fell in love with my local home brew store. And then... the didn't have cluster hops (didn't need 'em) They didn't have amarillo hops (well, those are specialty hops). And then the yeast started seeming kind of expensive ($5 a pack and as I'm a 2-galloner I only use need half a pack but I use the whole thing because I can save 'em) And they had lots of specialty little gadgets but only one make of each item. And they didn't have extra light DME, well, who the hell needs it when you can use light and/or pilsner DME (extra light is for p***ies, any way). And then...

And now I realize I live only 18 miles from MoreBeer. And everything at MoreBeer is only 2/3 to half the price. And they have twice as much. And...

And it's not like MoreBeer is evil and crass consumerism and WalMart like. (Ah, yes. The rampant consumerism and pandering to the mass appeal of the great consumer mill of ... home-brewers?!?!?! Nope. Not evil...)

Well, it's sad 'cause I still *want* to be in love with my LHBS. *sigh*...