Munich Malt as Base Grain (Diastatic Power)

So I just ran out of 2 row and other base malts except for my light Munich malt (10L). Until my next group buy goes through in another month, I am reserved to using Munich for my next batch (which is ok because i've been wanting to experiment with it for a while). I thought about doing a SMASH but then maybe thought about adding some specialty grains. From what I've gathered, Munich has diastatic power of about 40, with 35 needed for self conversion. Seems like there is a little extra DP but not much. If I do a normal gravity ale with it, about how much specialty grains could I add to still get full conversion? I was thinking about 8-10 lbs of munich as the base. Also, what hops would go good with it? I have mostly American C hops but also have some EKGs and maybe 1 oz of willamette. I am thinking of using a british ale yeast coupled with a higher mash temp (maybe 156), to get a higher FG and a good maltiness.

Anyone have a good ale recipe with Munich as the base malt?

Worst case, I was thinking maybe a Munich/EKG SMASH with maybe Wyeast 1028 (London Ale).

Munich malt makes a great base malt!

Which brand do you have? I believe that Briess' Munich malts have quite a bit more DP than Weyermann's.

Either way, you should have about 40L for DP with the Munich, so you should be fine with just about any specialty grains you use. You could just do a super quick guestimate by estimating that you'd use 8 pounds of base malt and 2 pounds of specialty grains. That would give you 320L, divided by 10, so a DP of +/= 32L. That would work.

A SMaSH would be great as well.

It's actually Canada Malting Company. I tried looking at the malt analysis sheet but did not see DP on there.

gcdowd said:

It's actually Canada Malting Company. I tried looking at the malt analysis sheet but did not see DP on there.

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Think twice...see my post here--make sure you know what its going to do: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/lager-dunkel-not-drying-out-seems-stalled-1-020-a-378795/

I've brewed a 97% Munich malt Alt with no problems. I think it was Best Malz, though.

General information, lintner ratings, and formulas can be found here:

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/

Lintner_for_batch = Σ(lintner_for_grain * weight_of_grain) / (total_batch_grain_weight)

bobbrews said:

General information, lintner ratings, and formulas can be found here:

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/

Lintner_for_batch = Σ(lintner_for_grain * weight_of_grain) / (total_batch_grain_weight)

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Wow, that article lists light Munich as 70L, I read elsewhere 40L. Must depend on the maltster?

Yes. Those are just ballpark ratings. It would be wise to research the actual brand of the malt.

bobbrews said:

Yes. Those are just ballpark ratings. It would be wise to research the actual brand of the malt.

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Haha I'm trying. Found the malt analysis sheet, no DP rating on it.

I've used Munich as a base malt a number of times. When I do, I typically lean towards the lighter Munich that is available (my LHBS has a dark and a light). Munich should be able to convert itself, so you'll probably be fine unless you have a lot of specialty malts.

gcdowd said:

So I just ran out of 2 row and other base malts except for my light Munich malt (10L). Until my next group buy goes through in another month, I am reserved to using Munich for my next batch (which is ok because i've been wanting to experiment with it for a while). I thought about doing a SMASH but then maybe thought about adding some specialty grains. From what I've gathered, Munich has diastatic power of about 40, with 35 needed for self conversion. Seems like there is a little extra DP but not much. If I do a normal gravity ale with it, about how much specialty grains could I add to still get full conversion? I was thinking about 8-10 lbs of munich as the base. Also, what hops would go good with it? I have mostly American C hops but also have some EKGs and maybe 1 oz of willamette. I am thinking of using a british ale yeast coupled with a higher mash temp (maybe 156), to get a higher FG and a good maltiness.

Anyone have a good ale recipe with Munich as the base malt?

Worst case, I was thinking maybe a Munich/EKG SMASH with maybe Wyeast 1028 (London Ale).

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If your light Munich is @ 10L it is domestic malt which is more of a specialty rather than base malt. Most although not necessarily all of the domestic Munich is produced from 6-row barley and is much darker is color than "real" Munich from Germany which is ~6-8L for light and 10-12L for dark. If you want to use Munich malt as a base malt get the real deal. The domestic Munich would be better used @ 10-20%.

I did an all Munich IPA that turned out great. I believe it was with CMC Munich but will have to check to make sure.

BigEd said:

If your light Munich is @ 10L it is domestic malt which is more of a specialty rather than base malt. Most although not necessarily all of the domestic Munich is produced from 6-row barley and is much darker is color than "real" Munich from Germany which is ~6-8L for light and 10-12L for dark. If you want to use Munich malt as a base malt get the real deal. The domestic Munich would be better used @ 10-20%.

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The color is stated as 6-10L. I am probably gonna call the maltster top find out the DP

My Helles Bock is mostly Munich (mix of Weyermann Munich I and Munich II). I would think you could easily do a Dunkel, Alt, or Bock with Munich base, but agree, make sure it's 2-row.

Weyermann says up to 100% http://www.weyermann.de/eng/produkte.asp?PN=2&idkat=15&umenue=yes&idmenue=0&sprache=2

What about caramunich. I inherited about 30lbs. Could I use it as a base malt or at least a 50/50 split with 2 row?

sfrisby said:

What about caramunich. I inherited about 30lbs. Could I use it as a base malt or at least a 50/50 split with 2 row?

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No. Even though the word "munich" is in there, it's a Cara- malt. That's a caramel/crystal malt.

Caramunich is a German crystal malt, about 56 degree L, and is used for color and flavor just as English and US caramel/crystal malts are.

It'd be a good sub for medium English crystal, or for crystal 60L in US beers.

gcdowd said:

It's actually Canada Malting Company. I tried looking at the malt analysis sheet but did not see DP on there.

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There should be a maybe 8 digit number on the front of the bag written in magic marker. That is your lot number. At the Country Malt Group website you can plug that number in to get the DP, color, coarse grind extract, protein, etc. specific to that exact bag of malt.

highgravitybacon said:

There should be a maybe 8 digit number on the front of the bag written in magic marker. That is your lot number. At the Country Malt Group website you can plug that number in to get the DP, color, coarse grind extract, protein, etc. specific to that exact bag of malt.

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Wish I knew, that bag is long gone

Yooper said:

No. Even though the word "munich" is in there, it's a Cara- malt. That's a caramel/crystal malt.

Caramunich is a German crystal malt, about 56 degree L, and is used for color and flavor just as English and US caramel/crystal malts are.

It'd be a good sub for medium English crystal, or for crystal 60L in US beers.

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Thank you, Yooper.

This is very topical for me, as I just bought a 55lb sack of Durst Dark Munich (40EBC/15(?)L). I really REALLY enjoyed a dunkel I had recently and wanted to make my own. Also dunkelweizen sounds pretty awesome too.

I think my current plan for the dunkel is to use about 20% Pils, 78% Dark Munich, and 2% Carafa II. I don't see any particular reason to push my luck using 100% dark munich, as I understand that its diastatic power is fairly low.

I'm also planning making a Marzen and an americanized Maibock (like Dead Guy, but I might use a real lager yeast). So many awesome things to put this malt in!

I'm super excited about this grain, but won't get to brew with it for another 2 weeks... going away on "vacation". (Just kidding, it should be super fun, and all by then my fermenters will be ready to bottle and fill with new awesome brews!)

QuercusMax said:

This is very topical for me, as I just bought a 55lb sack of Durst Dark Munich (40EBC/15(?)L). I really REALLY enjoyed a dunkel I had recently and wanted to make my own. Also dunkelweizen sounds pretty awesome too.

I think my current plan for the dunkel is to use about 20% Pils, 78% Dark Munich, and 2% Carafa II. I don't see any particular reason to push my luck using 100% dark munich, as I understand that its diastatic power is fairly low.

I'm also planning making a Marzen and an americanized Maibock (like Dead Guy, but I might use a real lager yeast). So many awesome things to put this malt in!

I'm super excited about this grain, but won't get to brew with it for another 2 weeks... going away on "vacation". (Just kidding, it should be super fun, and all by then my fermenters will be ready to bottle and fill with new awesome brews!)

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It will convert. Just do an iodine test at the end of your mash to verify conversion.

helibrewer said:

My Helles Bock is mostly Munich (mix of Weyermann Munich I and Munich II). I would think you could easily do a Dunkel, Alt, or Bock with Munich base, but agree, make sure it's 2-row.

Weyermann says up to 100% http://www.weyermann.de/eng/produkte.asp?PN=2&idkat=15&umenue=yes&idmenue=0&sprache=2

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Ok, so it's definitely 2 row and it states up to 100%. So I think I'm good

Got a Minuch Dunkel (almost) SMASH in my rotation that's mostly 10L Weyermann Munich. I started by roasting some of the Munich, but now I'm lazy and just add a few ounces of Carafa to hit the color. Use either EKG or Tett hops depending on what I have. Lager yeast, but I've also fermented cool with ale yeast. Never been disappointed.

Also says "produced in the traditional European method"

Very cool, I'll definitely be trying this soon. Does anyone have any example recipes to contribute?

Thought I'd drop back in to report on how my all-Durst-Dark-Munich Dunkel came out (brewday-wise, at least). Executive summary: Durst Dark Munich (40EBC / 15L) absolutely has the diastatic power to self-convert.

5-gallon modified BIAB batch.

Grains:
9.5 lb Durst Dark Munich (40 EBC)
Target OG: 1049

Hops:
1 oz Mt Hood 6.1% @ 60 minutes

Yeast:
Washed WLP838 slurry from 3-gallon Schwarzbier

Water:
No water treatment. Straight unfiltered Cleveland tap water.

I mashed at 152 for 60 minutes with 3 gallons (just a hair over 1.25Qt/lb). Fair fine grind with my Corona mill. I stirred it halfway through, and it already looked converted to me (clear instead of cloudy). Mash temp stayed consistent at 152 the entire mash (I mashed in the oven).

Did mash-out with 1 gallon 190* water. Drained my bag, then sparged with another 3 gallons. After squeezing the grain bag and combining the runnings, I wasn't quite at the volume I wanted, so I sparged with another half gallon of cold water. Preboil gravity measured 10.6 brix, and wort tasted nice and sweet.

The last sparge had come out at around 6 brix, so I decided I was going to make some starter wort for later - so I did another sparge with 1.5 gallons cold water, and got a bit over a gallon of 5 brix wort, which I boiled down to 8 brix in a separate pot.

After chilling, I checked gravity with my hydrometer - I had 5.5 gallons of 1.052 wort. Using 35points/lb/gal for Durst Dark Munich (based on their malt analysis sheet), this comes out at 86% efficiency.

This was by far my smoothest all-grain brewday ever. Also my largest amount of grains I've used for BIAB - I might be able to get as high as 12lb in my mashing kettle. So much fun!!!

Great to hear. I kegged my Munich ale about two weeks ago. I have yet to tap but I'll report back when I do

Munich is a fave base malt of mine... my Oktoberfest is 100% Munich, I also do doppelbocks from 75/25 Munich/2row to 50/50 depending on the profile I want. When I was brewing at Bell's in '89, we did a one off stout with Munich as the base, simple beer; Munich/roast/touch of chocolate/touch of crystal/flaked barley... I believe it was around 1.050... fermented in oak, nice beer

I checked the gravity of my all-Dark-Munich Dunkel, and it's down to 1.021 (after 5 days). So as far as wort fermentability goes, I think it's perfectly fine. The wlp838 is quite the fermenter, at least initially! It was like an ale fermentation at 52 degrees. I'm warming it up to ambient (~57) to clear up diacetyl and hopefully dry it out a bit more, but this is as far as I've gotten this yeast to go in the past (only second time using it). Crossing my fingers...

QuercusMax said:

I checked the gravity of my all-Dark-Munich Dunkel, and it's down to 1.021 (after 5 days). So as far as wort fermentability goes, I think it's perfectly fine. The wlp838 is quite the fermenter, at least initially! It was like an ale fermentation at 52 degrees. I'm warming it up to ambient (~57) to clear up diacetyl and hopefully dry it out a bit more, but this is as far as I've gotten this yeast to go in the past (only second time using it). Crossing my fingers...

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That's only about 58% attenuation, 10 pts lower than the minimum for that yeast...(not good). You need to shoot for more like 1.012-1.014.

Hope it dries out for you some more with temp increase, I had a all-munich dunkel stop at about the same spot (1.054 to 1.020), too sweet and not very good. (I used Gambrinus light munich which doesn't have enough power to be used 100%--didn't know at the time, my mistake)

WLP838 has an attenuation range of 68-76% according to White Labs. By my calculations, 76% would be 1.0125, and 68% is 1.0165. So 1.012 would be at the extreme limit of the attenuation you can expect from this yeast. Here's the math:

OG: 1.052 = 52 GU
(52-21)/52 = .596 = 60% attenuation at 1.021
(52-16)/52 = .692 = 69% attenuation at 1.016
(52-12)/52 = .769 = 77% attenuation at 1.012

The Schwarzbier I repitched this yeast from stopped at 1.018, with an OG of around 1.052, with 85% pilsner malt. So with my process it's pretty much on par.

QuercusMax said:

WLP838 has an attenuation range of 68-76% according to White Labs. By my calculations, 76% would be 1.0125, and 68% is 1.0165. So 1.012 would be at the extreme limit of the attenuation you can expect from this yeast. Here's the math:

OG: 1.052 = 52 GU
(52-21)/52 = .596 = 60% attenuation at 1.021
(52-16)/52 = .692 = 69% attenuation at 1.016
(52-12)/52 = .769 = 77% attenuation at 1.012

The Schwarzbier I repitched this yeast from stopped at 1.018, with an OG of around 1.052, with 85% pilsner malt. So with my process it's pretty much on par.

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Well, you must like your lagers a lot sweeter than I do, with ones that are 1.050s, I am looking for at least 1.014 or under...

Whatever you like is cool, no doubt, but the BJCP guidelines say FG: 1.008 – 1.012 for Schwarzbier and FG: 1.010 – 1.016 for Dunkel--just saying it may be something to look into, given the ranges that were agreed upon by folks that know something about beer.

Oh, you were referring to the BJCP attenuation range, not the yeast's. That makes more sense.

I would like to get them drier, but I'm not sure this yeast is the one for the job. My Schwarzbier is definitely not quite to style.

For our May meeting, our club is making up a bunch of beers with a single malt in each one. We all used the same hop addition and the same yeast (supplied by a local brewery). This will allow us to taste the difference between the different malts. We'll have 8 or 9 kegs for the tasting on the 21st.

Anyhow, I used Best Malz Munich malt for my contribution. Original Gravity was 1.050 and mine fermented down to 1.011 for 78% attenuation. It's clear that this malt has enough diastatic power to convert itself.

I did end up brewing this with Munich as the base (I think I used 10 or 11 lbs). I threw in a little crystal 40, and I think a touch of Special B. OG was around 1.062 and FG was about 1.012 IIRC. It's been kegged for a few weeks and it's into the rotation but I probably won't get to it for another month or two.

My dunkel made it down to 1.017 after another week. A little higher than I'd like, but it tastes really nice - "liquid bread" is a great description.

Next time I used WLP838 (for anything) I'm going to mash at 148 - with my system that may be what it takes to dry it out.

I made a Munich dunkel over the winter with 65% Munich malt, 32% Vienna and 3% Carafa I. Used a 2 qt wyeast 2308 starter and it finished at 1.013. It is VERY delicious! Next time I'm going to use midnight wheat instead of Carafa I and do a glyco-protein rest at 162* at the end of the mash for foam stability.

gcdowd said:

I did end up brewing this with Munich as the base (I think I used 10 or 11 lbs). I threw in a little crystal 40, and I think a touch of Special B. OG was around 1.062 and FG was about 1.012 IIRC. It's been kegged for a few weeks and it's into the rotation but I probably won't get to it for another month or two.

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I'm correct in assuming you used the Canada Malting Munich, right?

Thanks!

golfduke said:

I'm correct in assuming you used the Canada Malting Munich, right?

Thanks!

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Yes, that is correct.