Caribou Slobber Kit - Harsh Bitterness

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arringtonbp

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I kegged my caribou slobber after 10 days in primary and 3 weeks in secondary. I racked it into the keg ontop of some star san foam. I have noticed that my beer tastes great but then has a very harsh bitter bite to it on the end. I am wondering if the star san may have affected the flavor or if it's possible the beer is over-carbed and is harsh because of that. Or, perhaps it's the recipe? Anybody run into similar issues?
 
Look at the reviews of this beer on youtube etc.
You are not alone. I made this beer also, and I found the same thing. The beer taste good...and I think most people will not be bothered by that "bite" at the end - but I too noticed this with mind.
I am hoping further conditioning in the bottles clears this out - but I doubt it.
I will make this beer again - only this time, since I now know the active fermentation for this beer is early and wild - I will make sure the temperature does not get above 70 max. ANND - I will not secondary. I have to wonder if leaving it in the primary longer is what this complex beer needs.

P.S.--> The bite in mine sounds less harsh than yours...but it is there.
 
I actually tried one today and it seems that the bite is settling down a bit. Its nice and chocolatey with some earthy hops on the end. Also I stand by your term temp idea. I ferment my ales around 65 F. I used to live in an apartment where it was harder to do this. Since I started controlling the temp and keeping my yeast happy my beer has gotten significantly better.
 
arringtonbp said:
I actually tried one today and it seems that the bite is settling down a bit. Its nice and chocolatey with some earthy hops on the end. Also I stand by your term temp idea. I ferment my ales around 65 F. I used to live in an apartment where it was harder to do this. Since I started controlling the temp and keeping my yeast happy my beer has gotten significantly better.
Click to expand...

I wonder if it wasn't just some "carbonic acid bite" that I get sometimes when I carb up a keg. It gets better in a few days, but it sometimes seems more pronounced in beers with darker (roasted) grains at first, at least to me. I noticed a "bite" almost metallic in flavor when I carbed up a stout recently. But within about 5 days, it totally went away.
 
That is entirely possible. I can describe the bitterness as sharp and maybe soapy or bitter in the same way as bitter greens. Its hard to describe, but it seems to be settling slightly.
 
You're not alone, it is a very harsh and bitter beer. Especially when young. Sometimes even when aged.

Some things that I found to help:

1.) Control your fermentation temperature. Both in the primary and in the secondary. That means it has to be on the low end of the yeast temp range around 64F - 65F for the DanStar Windsor Ale during active fermentation. That's the temp of the wort not the outside of the container.

2.) Cold steep your dark grains. (Not sure this is possible with an extract kit; or even all grain; you probably have to buy all of the grains separately.) http://hbd.org/clubs/cascade/public_html/brewing/index.html

3.) Hot steep your crystal malts w/ a little base malt to eliminate residual starches (hold at 150-155 for 30 min.). http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=378.0

4.) Properly rehydrate your yeast. http://www.danstaryeast.com/sites/default/files/windsor_datasheet.pdf

5.) Your wort/beer should be held at 64F-65F for a minimum of 8 weeks. Cold crash for 2 days; Now keg and wait 4 weeks; holding it @64-65F; sampling once a week until the flavors have mellowed.

6.) Add your DME at the start of the boil (preferably to cool water while heating the water) and the LME about 10 - 15 min before the end of the boil (I think they've updated their instructions to include this.)

7.) If your finished beer is darker brown/black instead of a lighter brown then you've caramelized or burnt sugars and probably won't like the result. The color should be light brown, not dark brown or black.

8.) Cut your water with distilled water. Use half distilled (or RO) and half tap water.

I've successfully made Caribou Slobber; but I had to buy all of the ingredients myself and put the kit together such that I could do all of the above.

It is a good beer when properly made and aged (mellowed); however, Northern Brewer marketing will make you believe that you can just "make the kit" per their lacking directions and the beer will turn out great in a short period of time! Unfortunately I was also mislead by this and the amount of work and knowledge to make a good Caribou Slobber is simply beyond that of a first time homebrewer.
 
ShootsNRoots said:
You're not alone, it is a very harsh and bitter beer. Especially when young. Sometimes even when aged.

Some things that I found to help:

1.) Control your fermentation temperature. Both in the primary and in the secondary. That means it has to be on the low end of the yeast temp range around 64F - 65F for the DanStar Windsor Ale during active fermentation. That's the temp of the wort not the outside of the container.

2.) Cold steep your dark grains. (Not sure this is possible with an extract kit; or even all grain; you probably have to buy all of the grains separately.) http://hbd.org/clubs/cascade/public_html/brewing/index.html

3.) Hot steep your crystal malts w/ a little base malt to eliminate residual starches (hold at 150-155 for 30 min.). http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=378.0

4.) Properly rehydrate your yeast. http://www.danstaryeast.com/sites/default/files/windsor_datasheet.pdf

5.) Your wort/beer should be held at 64F-65F for a minimum of 8 weeks. Cold crash for 2 days; Now keg and wait 4 weeks; holding it @64-65F; sampling once a week until the flavors have mellowed.

6.) Add your DME at the start of the boil (preferably to cool water while heating the water) and the LME about 10 - 15 min before the end of the boil (I think they've updated their instructions to include this.)

7.) If your finished beer is darker brown/black instead of a lighter brown then you've caramelized or burnt sugars and probably won't like the result. The color should be light brown, not dark brown or black.

8.) Cut your water with distilled water. Use half distilled (or RO) and half tap water.

I've successfully made Caribou Slobber; but I had to buy all of the ingredients myself and put the kit together such that I could do all of the above.

It is a good beer when properly made and aged (mellowed); however, Northern Brewer marketing will make you believe that you can just "make the kit" per their lacking directions and the beer will turn out great in a short period of time! Unfortunately I was also mislead by this and the amount of work and knowledge to make a good Caribou Slobber is simply beyond that of a first time homebrewer.
Click to expand...

Wow, excellent suggestions. This beer fermented in the low 60s for about 4-5 weeks. I need to try steeping the grains the way you suggested. I've heard of this but haven't tried it yet. I used wyeast for this batch, but can't remember which. I want to say it was the american ale yeast. I do think I'm getting some kettle caramelization because it is a dark brown. Will have to try moving back to using some distilled or ro water.
 
Also, I am curious. Why is this beer so bitter? The hops in it are low as and there aren't a lot of them
 
Also, I am curious. Why is this beer so bitter? The hops in it are low as and there aren't a lot of them
Click to expand...

1.) It has a BU:GU close to an IPA (0.68)
2.) It uses darker malts (I think they've modified the recipe to use pale chocolate instead of chocolate)
3.) The recommended yeasts have a tart finish to them
4.) The burning/caramelizing of the wort sugars during the boil adds to the bitter effect (may or may not be applicable to your case)
5.) The hardness of the water you use can vary the bitterness/perceived bitterness

There's probably more but that's all I can think of right now.
 
ShootsNRoots said:
1.) It has a BU:GU close to an IPA (0.68)
2.) It uses darker malts (I think they've modified the recipe to use pale chocolate instead of chocolate)
3.) The recommended yeasts have a tart finish to them
4.) The burning/caramelizing of the wort sugars during the boil adds to the bitter effect (may or may not be applicable to your case)
5.) The hardness of the water you use can vary the bitterness/perceived bitterness

There's probably more but that's all I can think of right now.
Click to expand...

That makes sense. I steeped my grains at 155 for 30 minutes, and I turned off the gas until I had stirred the lme in, but the beer does seem awfully dark, like a deep mahogany color. Perhaps the flavor I was tasting is due to burnt sugars.
 
ShootsNRoots said:
You're not alone, it is a very harsh and bitter beer. Especially when young. Sometimes even when aged.

Some things that I found to help:

1.) Control your fermentation temperature. Both in the primary and in the secondary. That means it has to be on the low end of the yeast temp range around 64F - 65F for the DanStar Windsor Ale during active fermentation. That's the temp of the wort not the outside of the container.

2.) Cold steep your dark grains. (Not sure this is possible with an extract kit; or even all grain; you probably have to buy all of the grains separately.) http://hbd.org/clubs/cascade/public_html/brewing/index.html

3.) Hot steep your crystal malts w/ a little base malt to eliminate residual starches (hold at 150-155 for 30 min.). http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=378.0

4.) Properly rehydrate your yeast. http://www.danstaryeast.com/sites/default/files/windsor_datasheet.pdf

5.) Your wort/beer should be held at 64F-65F for a minimum of 8 weeks. Cold crash for 2 days; Now keg and wait 4 weeks; holding it @64-65F; sampling once a week until the flavors have mellowed.

6.) Add your DME at the start of the boil (preferably to cool water while heating the water) and the LME about 10 - 15 min before the end of the boil (I think they've updated their instructions to include this.)

7.) If your finished beer is darker brown/black instead of a lighter brown then you've caramelized or burnt sugars and probably won't like the result. The color should be light brown, not dark brown or black.

8.) Cut your water with distilled water. Use half distilled (or RO) and half tap water.

I've successfully made Caribou Slobber; but I had to buy all of the ingredients myself and put the kit together such that I could do all of the above.

It is a good beer when properly made and aged (mellowed); however, Northern Brewer marketing will make you believe that you can just "make the kit" per their lacking directions and the beer will turn out great in a short period of time! Unfortunately I was also mislead by this and the amount of work and knowledge to make a good Caribou Slobber is simply beyond that of a first time homebrewer.
Click to expand...

Awesome post guy....I am only into my second brew, but thanks to this site quickly realized that NB's "brew sheet" is WOEFULLY lacking in information and gives bad advice.

For instance "Place fermentation vessel in a WARM, dark place till fermentation begins"...what is warm? I think most people would interpret this as putting it in the warmest place in your home - the exact opposite of what you should do.
The sheet makes no mention of avoiding a too hot fermentation which is CRITICAL in making any beer.
When steeping grains, it says "for 20 minutes or until water reaches 170 degrees"...it says this after telling you to "heat 2.5 gallons of water"...what is "heat"...specifically. Again most people would interpret this as to not begin steeping until the water is heated...which at that point it is already going to be close to 170!!

I could go on...not to knock N'Brewer...they appear to sell good stuff, but damn - a guy shouldn't have to brew 5-6 beers before just beginning to get it right. You would think NB would give the best advice possible - which encourages people to keep brewing and buying their producs
 
iamwhatiseem said:
Awesome post guy....I am only into my second brew, but thanks to this site quickly realized that NB's "brew sheet" is WOEFULLY lacking in information and gives bad advice.

For instance "Place fermentation vessel in a WARM, dark place till fermentation begins"...what is warm? I think most people would interpret this as putting it in the warmest place in your home - the exact opposite of what you should do.
The sheet makes no mention of avoiding a too hot fermentation which is CRITICAL in making any beer.
When steeping grains, it says "for 20 minutes or until water reaches 170 degrees"...it says this after telling you to "heat 2.5 gallons of water"...what is "heat"...specifically. Again most people would interpret this as to not begin steeping until the water is heated...which at that point it is already going to be close to 170!!

I could go on...not to knock N'Brewer...they appear to sell good stuff, but damn - a guy shouldn't have to brew 5-6 beers before just beginning to get it right. You would think NB would give the best advice possible - which encourages people to keep brewing and buying their producs
Click to expand...

I think part of what's going on here is that they're trying to create basic instructions for anybody. Then you can improve upon those in any way you'd like. Everybody seems to have their own process
 
iamwhatiseem said:
For instance "Place fermentation vessel in a WARM, dark place till fermentation begins"...what is warm? I think most people would interpret this as putting it in the warmest place in your home - the exact opposite of what you should do.
The sheet makes no mention of avoiding a too hot fermentation which is CRITICAL in making any beer.
Click to expand...
I think NB gives this advice because they're located in Minnesota. Getting a hot fermentation there is probably difficult. Thing is, I live in Miami, and getting too cold of a fermentation here is practically impossible. Actually getting a cold enough fermentation here is ridiculously challenging. It's kind of silly that they wouldn't just account for different climates considering that they're one of the largest online vendors of homebrew equipment and ingredients. They do give a yeast temperature range at the beginning of the sheets though.
 
a guy shouldn't have to brew 5-6 beers before just beginning to get it right.
Click to expand...

I've thrown away *many* batches learning how to brew. Yes it's a waste of time and money to learn that you need to invest more time and money on equipment upgrades, ingredients etc.. to make better beer; only to have to buy that same damn kit again and hope to get it right this time. Not sure how to resolve this conundrum.

1.) Here's a $30 kit; go home and make your beer. Your success will largely depend on your ability to follow instruction and your environment (have a cold basement?, have good water?, sanitize properly? etc..).
2.) Here's a $30 kit and $2000 worth of new equipment; go home and make your beer. Your success will largely depend on following instructions.

What's missing from both is the knowledge acquired both from research and from actually going through the process of brewing in your environment (aka. experience). Seems to be the only way to learn (albeit expensive).

I think part of what's going on here is that they're trying to create basic instructions for anybody. Then you can improve upon those in any way you'd like. Everybody seems to have their own process
Click to expand...

For the most part, sure that's why they provide generic instruction, but also to convince people that the upfront investment will be minimal, and one of *their* starter kits will suffice. You'd scare away a lot of people if you told them they needed advanced items like stir plates, temperature controlled environments and what-have-you to make the kit.
 
I think NB gives this advice because they're located in Minnesota. Getting a hot fermentation there is probably difficult.
Click to expand...

Environment has a lot to do with brewing success. Apartment or house? Have a cold basement or not? etc.. etc.. Take a look at guys like Craig from YouTube making all of those Coopers kits... he's in Canada, in his basement. I'm guessing he's got a cool enough environment with decent water to make good Coopers kits. Give one of those coopers kits to a guy in an apartment in San Antonio, TX. That'd be a different story...
 
ShootsNRoots said:
Environment has a lot to do with brewing success. Apartment or house? Have a cold basement or not? etc.. etc.. Take a look at guys like Craig from YouTube making all of those Coopers kits... he's in Canada, in his basement. I'm guessing he's got a cool enough environment with decent water to make good Coopers kits. Give one of those coopers kits to a guy in an apartment in San Antonio, TX. That'd be a different story...
Click to expand...

Not to argue...but then they should give specifics. I mean...how hard is it to add "between 64-68 degrees is ideal"? And then a small paragraph of a few suggestions to accomplish this depending on your environment.

This forum probably saved my first brew from being a disaster, and absolutely is contributing to my 2nd being much better. Guys like ShootsNRoots and that Ravvvy guy - deserve a beer from all of us.
 
inflictor-of-grimness said:
I think NB gives this advice because they're located in Minnesota. Getting a hot fermentation there is probably difficult. Thing is, I live in Miami, and getting too cold of a fermentation here is practically impossible. Actually getting a cold enough fermentation here is ridiculously challenging. It's kind of silly that they wouldn't just account for different climates considering that they're one of the largest online vendors of homebrew equipment and ingredients. They do give a yeast temperature range at the beginning of the sheets though.
Click to expand...

This is a mistaken impression of Minnesota where we can expect summer temperature that exceed the hottest days in Miami. Even as far north in Minnesota as I live, days in the mid-90 are normal in the summer with an occasional day over 100. Winters are cold for sure but not our summers.
 
iamwhatiseem said:
Not to argue...but then they should give specifics. I mean...how hard is it to add "between 64-68 degrees is ideal"? And then a small paragraph of a few suggestions to accomplish this depending on your environment.

This forum probably saved my first brew from being a disaster, and absolutely is contributing to my 2nd being much better. Guys like ShootsNRoots and that Ravvvy guy - deserve a beer from all of us.
Click to expand...

You can make drinkable beer by following their instructions. You can make BETTER beer by controlling the temperature, making a yeast starter, cold steeping dark grains, using the right water, etc.... I think the instructions are adequate for making drinkable beer. Then as you get into the hobby and want to improve, you search for ways to improve and begin to try new things with it. But if you're having a hard time controlling the temperature, one thing you can do is sit the fermenter in a shallow water bath. Drape a T-shirt over it and put it in an area with good air circulation or run a fan by it.
 
arringtonbp said:
You can make drinkable beer by following their instructions. You can make BETTER beer by controlling the temperature, making a yeast starter, cold steeping dark grains, using the right water, etc.... I think the instructions are adequate for making drinkable beer. Then as you get into the hobby and want to improve, you search for ways to improve and begin to try new things with it. But if you're having a hard time controlling the temperature, one thing you can do is sit the fermenter in a shallow water bath. Drape a T-shirt over it and put it in an area with good air circulation or run a fan by it.
Click to expand...

ergo - why I said this forum probably saved my first batch. I indeed used the "swamp" method because I read it here. I ran across someone saying the fermentation temp. is best in the 60's...then I read another and another...I looked at the carboy...SH*T!!!...it was at 76 degrees...so I frantically searched on what to do. Thank Goodness it was early in the process.
I also steeped the grains when the water was already hot (150).
With this second batch (day 8 right now) I am following instructions from here.
 
iamwhatiseem said:
ergo - why I said this forum probably saved my first batch. I indeed used the "swamp" method because I read it here. I ran across someone saying the fermentation temp. is best in the 60's...then I read another and another...I looked at the carboy...SH*T!!!...it was at 76 degrees...so I frantically searched on what to do. Thank Goodness it was early in the process.
I also steeped the grains when the water was already hot (150).
With this second batch (day 8 right now) I am following instructions from here.
Click to expand...

That's how I learned it as well. However I did do a lot of research beforehand and knew about temperature control before my first batch. I think this is part of the fun though. Every beer has some way to be improved, some way to be different than the last.
 

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