The Boston 120V/2000W would be fine, but a tad on the high side and may cause some scorching. Most people use 1500W elements. The 240V/5500W is way overkill and will certainly scorch your wort. It's more meant for a HERMS system or an eKettle.
RIMS for Dummies
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The Boston 120V/2000W would be fine, but a tad on the high side and may cause some scorching. Most people use 1500W elements. The 240V/5500W is way overkill and will certainly scorch your wort. It's more meant for a HERMS system or an eKettle.
Carlscan26
Well-Known Member
misled_drummer said:
You can run those, they'll just output 1/4 of the power rating.
And by cutting the power by 1/4 you also cut the power density by 1/4, which reduced the likely hood of scorching.
A long but not folded 240 element run at 120 is likely low enough density that it will not scorch. The power density is the power if the element divided by the total length (simplified version).
A long but not folded 240 element run at 120 is likely low enough density that it will not scorch. The power density is the power if the element divided by the total length (simplified version).
misled_drummer
Well-Known Member
With that said, anyone have any further recommendations on an appropriate heater element? Home Depot nor Lowes seems to have an incloy, fold back 120v ULWD. 
Thank you so much guys.
Thank you so much guys.
If it will fit, go to Home Depot and get the Camco 5500W 240V LWD (150W/in^2) Model 15597. Using this at 120V will give you 1375W and ULWD (12.5 W/in^2). This is the black folded back element. I use this in my RIMs and have run it at 120V in a water only test. It will maintain temp, but will be slow if you try to step mash.
If the fold back element is too wide (I bent mine to not touch the side walls of the tube), try Camco Model 15293 3800W 240V HD. Running at 120V this will give you 950W and LWD (37.5 W/in^2).
Basically look at the HD web site and look at 240V elements. Running at 120V you get 25% the power and 25% the power density. Target 50W/in^2 for the density to ensure you get LWD if you are worried about scorching.
I hope this helps...
If the fold back element is too wide (I bent mine to not touch the side walls of the tube), try Camco Model 15293 3800W 240V HD. Running at 120V this will give you 950W and LWD (37.5 W/in^2).
Basically look at the HD web site and look at 240V elements. Running at 120V you get 25% the power and 25% the power density. Target 50W/in^2 for the density to ensure you get LWD if you are worried about scorching.
I hope this helps...
misled_drummer
Well-Known Member
This is great help. And the 5500W 240v element will run on a 20 amp circuit just fine? Thank you!
Yes.
5500W/4= 1375W
1375W/120V= 11.5A
Even on a 15A circuit with a pump (approx 1.3A) , you are only using 85% of the circuit capacity.
misled_drummer
Well-Known Member
Awesome. I got an email yesterday that the correct fitting shipped. I should be putting this thing together at the end of next week after finals are over.
Thank you so much guys.
nutty_gnome
Well-Known Member
How does one connect 120v to the terminals on a 220 volt element?
Carlscan26
Well-Known Member
nutty_gnome said:
Black to one terminal, white to the other and ground to the kettle or the box in which you're mounting this ala the electricbreeery.com.
misled_drummer
Well-Known Member
I am in business. The Camco element fit like a charm. It's a little tight inside the tube, so I might have to bend the element a little to prevent it from hitting the sides of the tube.
TRainH2o
Well-Known Member
Is it possible to use one of the aquarium temp controllers that a lot of people are using to control their keezers, to control the heating element? I know this assumes I will be using a 120v element, which I would be.
Thanks
Thanks
Someone smarter than me might chime in with a different solution, but I'm going to say, "No an aquarium temp controller won't work for a RIMs."
The aquarium temp controller turns the power on or off based on the temperature read by the probe and the controller settings. This works great for refrigerators because the compressor is either on or off.
What most people use on a RIMs is a PID controller. The simple explanation is that the PID output is generally a percentage of full on. So the heating element in the RIMs runs at less than maximum power consistently.
The aquarium controller is like a light switch. The PID is like a dimmer switch for a light. To maintain mash temp my RIMs run at 10-20%. An aquarium controller isn't designed to cut on and off fast, so it can't time average a low percentage . And turning on 100% would add a lot of heat to the small amount of wort in the tube. The wort could scorch or the temp could go hot enough to denature the enzymes.
The PID is more complicated than I described, but I thought talking about pulse width modulation and mechanical vs solid state relays would add un-need detail. I'd be happy to post about it, but there is also a wealth of info on those topics in the forum.
<https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/aquarium-rims-controller-am-i-crack-196609/>
The aquarium temp controller turns the power on or off based on the temperature read by the probe and the controller settings. This works great for refrigerators because the compressor is either on or off.
What most people use on a RIMs is a PID controller. The simple explanation is that the PID output is generally a percentage of full on. So the heating element in the RIMs runs at less than maximum power consistently.
The aquarium controller is like a light switch. The PID is like a dimmer switch for a light. To maintain mash temp my RIMs run at 10-20%. An aquarium controller isn't designed to cut on and off fast, so it can't time average a low percentage . And turning on 100% would add a lot of heat to the small amount of wort in the tube. The wort could scorch or the temp could go hot enough to denature the enzymes.
The PID is more complicated than I described, but I thought talking about pulse width modulation and mechanical vs solid state relays would add un-need detail. I'd be happy to post about it, but there is also a wealth of info on those topics in the forum.
<https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/aquarium-rims-controller-am-i-crack-196609/>
First batch with my RIMS tube went off without a hitch, but how do you figure in heat loss from RIMS tube in your strike calculations? Temp wound up way low, as the RIMS tube & fittings were at 60 degrees ambient. Of course, it heated up to temp in several minutes. I may go to filling mash tun w/ water and running up to temp before adding grain.
TRainH2o
Well-Known Member
Thanks, that makes sense.
That is exactly what I do: I fill up the MLT, start the recirc wide open, and set the RIMs for the dough in temp. Once the temp is stable, I wait 10 min... then throttle down the recirc to mash speed, turn off the pump, turn off the RIMs and dough in. When I'm done doughing in, I turn the recirc back on and the RIMs back on and the mash is set.
I do just what kwadric does, let the RIMS stabilize the strike water at the dough in temperature, shut down the RIMS and pump, dough in and then start recirculation with the PID set for the mash temp. It's very easy on my BCS-460 to program this.
misled_drummer
Well-Known Member
I started the building process today. This is what I have so far.
JoeyChopps
Well-Known Member
That's a sweet kill switch.
misled_drummer
Well-Known Member
Thanks. So here is the inside of my toolbox:
All of the "grunt" work is done. I attempted to place my pump inside the toolbox, when I realized too late that it probably would be too cramped, hence the tape on the side.
The GFCI is on the top of the picture, the two switches right below that: one for the pump and another for the heater element. The pump and heater element will be plugged into the GFCI. To the left is the PID, right next to that is the outlet, and at the bottom is the SSR, heatsink and the kill switch.
So the hardest part, for me, has come: the wiring.
I've tried to adapt some of the diagrams here and some of the pictures you guys have provided, but the switches are throwing me off.
I have a 4500w 240v heater element and I am running everything off of a 15 amp circuit. Again, any help will greatly be appreciated.
http://www.auberins.com/images/Manual/SW1_manual.pdf
Thanks. So here is the inside of my toolbox:
All of the "grunt" work is done. I attempted to place my pump inside the toolbox, when I realized too late that it probably would be too cramped, hence the tape on the side.
The GFCI is on the top of the picture, the two switches right below that: one for the pump and another for the heater element. The pump and heater element will be plugged into the GFCI. To the left is the PID, right next to that is the outlet, and at the bottom is the SSR, heatsink and the kill switch.
So the hardest part, for me, has come: the wiring.
I've tried to adapt some of the diagrams here and some of the pictures you guys have provided, but the switches are throwing me off.
I have a 4500w 240v heater element and I am running everything off of a 15 amp circuit. Again, any help will greatly be appreciated.
http://www.auberins.com/images/Manual/SW1_manual.pdf
So go at the wiring from the diagram on this site but before you fire anything up have a electrician look at it. Wish you were in Oregon id hook you up
fluidmechanics
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This is my controller also built into a toolbox.
fluidmechanics
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The pump is supplied by a former computer monitor power supply, then to the pump speed control that does off to full power. I was able to reuse the connector for a quick disconnect for my pump.
This is incorrect. A PID controller does not "dim" a power source as you described. A PID simply switches a power source on and off, just like an aquarium controller. However, the PID is "smart" in that it learns and adjusts its on and off cycling to more accurately control the difference between its setpoint temperature and its heated medium's temperature. It takes into account the present error in the proportional difference between those two values (P), the past error in the integral difference between those two values (I), and the future error in the differential difference between those two values (D). It is essentially a very sophisticated light switch, but it is by no means a dimmer.
You were correct when you talked about pulse-width modulation being a methodology for "dimming" a power source, but they are mutually exclusive things. This is not to say that they can't be used in conjunction with each other with a slightly more advanced circuit, but a simple PID controller will be more than adequate for keeping a heated medium (in this case wort) well within 1 degree of its setpoint.
I would say yes an aquarium controller could be used to control a RIMS, but the major drawbacks with that are the fact that aquarium controllers are meant for much smaller heater loads (typical aquarium heater mats are in the 10-100W range) and would need significant modification to control a typical RIMS load of 1500W or greater. Also, they are not as "smart" as a true PID controller and usually only use either PI, PD or sometimes only Proportional control and don't account for the entire PID spectrum of a system's temperature profile.
I'm putting together an electric RIMS system for my gas-fired BIAB, tri-clamp system and have a plumbing question:
In most plumbing schematics I've seen, the kettle output is connected to the pump; the pump then feeds the RIMS tube. This requires 3 silicon hoses - kettle-pump, pump-RIMS, RIMS-kettle. Since everything is tri-clamp, I'm able connect the RIMS tube directly to the kettle and use only 2 silicon hoses -- RIMS-pump, pump-kettle. I've done a small test-run with this using water, and it seems to work fine. Water flows from kettle through RIMS tube to pump input via gravity; heating element in RIMS tube has little chance of being exposed air -- kettle would have to completely drain or kettle valve turned off.
Does anyone see any potential issues with this approach? I like it because it means one less thing to clean.
Edit:
One potential issue that just occurred to me is that since the heating element is on top, the top part of the element above the RIMS liquid input port might not get covered in liquid. This could impact lifespan of the element and potentially lead to some wort scorching. BTW, I'm using the Brewers Hardware RIMS tube.
In most plumbing schematics I've seen, the kettle output is connected to the pump; the pump then feeds the RIMS tube. This requires 3 silicon hoses - kettle-pump, pump-RIMS, RIMS-kettle. Since everything is tri-clamp, I'm able connect the RIMS tube directly to the kettle and use only 2 silicon hoses -- RIMS-pump, pump-kettle. I've done a small test-run with this using water, and it seems to work fine. Water flows from kettle through RIMS tube to pump input via gravity; heating element in RIMS tube has little chance of being exposed air -- kettle would have to completely drain or kettle valve turned off.
Does anyone see any potential issues with this approach? I like it because it means one less thing to clean.
Edit:
One potential issue that just occurred to me is that since the heating element is on top, the top part of the element above the RIMS liquid input port might not get covered in liquid. This could impact lifespan of the element and potentially lead to some wort scorching. BTW, I'm using the Brewers Hardware RIMS tube.
ccostel
Well-Known Member
I as going to do the same configuration, but put the element on the bottom side of the rims tube.
Wouldn't that make PID control difficult -- sensor would come before heating element. Makes for a long feedback loop through the kettle...
ccostel
Well-Known Member
The flow would be out the mash tun, through the pump, into the rims tube on the heating element end, out the rims tube on the temp probe end and back into the mash tun.
I see --- this is different from the approach I'm thinking about. I'd like to connect the RIMS tube directly to the kettle output, avoiding the need for a hose between the kettle and pump.
ccostel
Well-Known Member
I have the rims tube connected directly to the Mash Tun return using a triclamp.
Fc36,
You are 100% correct. I wrote a very long post including a lot of the details of the inner workings of the two systems... and then deleted and went with a shorter over simplified to the point of being technically inaccurate post.
Thanks for flushing out the specifics. Your post is much better than what I deleted!
misled_drummer
Well-Known Member
bazowie said:
Thanks for that. I wired the heating element last week and it worked. Damn thing gets hot really fast. I bought krazy glue instead of JB Weld to fuse the cap and heating element. Might go get the JB Weld instead.
I am taking this really slow, almost too slow. I wanted to wire the entire thing before I started Bar Prep courses this week. I think I'm going to tackle this this next Sunday and see how it goes.
machinehead_
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FYI, there are proportional (analog) PID controllers:
http://www.extech.com/instruments/product.asp?catid=53&prodid=497
HDIr0n
Well-Known Member
What diameter pipe are you running with that 5500w element? I just ordered the electronics, now I have to order the pipe and fittings.
Thanks,
-G
I ordered 1.5in diameter stainless threaded pipe from Murray Equipment. It is a very similar setup to the early RIMs in this thread. As I mentioned above, I had to put an "S" bend the element so it would not touch the sidewalls. The "S" bend centers the fold back in the center of the tube instead of the long side of the fold back.
HDIr0n
Well-Known Member
Thanks kwadric,
How long of a pipe nipple did you go with? I was looking into installing the element in aluminum cam locks for easy cleaning of the element. One other feature that I am debating is utilizing a union in the center of the rims tube to further disassemble the tube for cleaning. I was thinking about using a 6" and a 8" nipple.
My RIMs is similar to what you are talking about (except for the union). I used the 8in nipple. I measured from the tip of the element to the center of the tee with the wort exit port. It is over 4in. The element is 13.5 inches from the tip to the hex after the threads. If you decide to use a union, I think that you could go with two 3in pipes... an 8in and 6in plus the length of the union it will be very long (if I understood your plan correct).
Here are the parts that I used:
Murray Equipment - Stainless steel pipe
three 1.5in to 0.5in bushing
one 1.5 to 1.0in bushing
two 1.5in Tee
one 1.5in diameter by 8in threaded pipe
Pro-Flow Dynamics - aluminum camlocks
one 1.5in Type D Aluminum (with handles)
one 1.5in Type F Aluminum
two 0.5in Type F Aluminum
I assembled my RIMS by putting the 8in threaded pipe between the two Tees. I placed used a 1.5 to 0.5in reduction bushing in the top of each Tee and then a Type F Cam (w/o handles) for the wort in and out. At the end of one Tee, I placed a 1.5 to 0.5in reduction bushing and then used a compression fitting for a temperature probe. At the end of the other Tee, I used the 1.5in Type F Cam (w/o handles). I screwed the 1.0 in threaded heating element into the 1.0 to 1.5in reduction bushing. I screwed the other end of the 1.0 to 1.5in reduction bushing into the 1.5in Type D Cam (with handles to lock the cam).
I bought a PVC coupler that fit over the end of the heating element and used a two part epoxy to seal the electrical connections so that I could not short the heating element if I had any kind of leak. I use my RIMS tube horizontal. I have the two Tees offset by 90 degrees. I pump wort into the horizontal port (which is near the element) and out the vertical port (which is at the end with the temp probe).
HDIr0n
Well-Known Member
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