first lager...

im not that much of a newbie. but this will be my first attempt at a lager.

ive got:
1. cool storage with temp control
2. a great pilzen recipe
3.all equipment. (i think)

what i dont have:
1. knowledge of the process

questions:
1. after the boil, what temp to pitch at
2. good suggestions of lager yeasts for a grain bill thats going to be primarily vienna
3. average (?) lagering process time
4. ?diacetyl rest?


any and all other suggestions/information is greatly appreciated



Slainte!

maltbarleyhops said:

questions:
1. after the boil, what temp to pitch at
2. good suggestions of lager yeasts for a grain bill thats going to be primarily vienna
3. average (?) lagering process time
4. ?diacetyl rest?

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1. Pitch cold. Cool your wort to below your target fermentation temp and pitch a BIG starter of yeast (2L minimum, 4L better). Let things warm naturally to your target fermentation temp from there.

2. WLP830 or WLP838 both make great lagers. Those are pretty much the only lager strains I use...838 is the favorite.

3. I believe they say lager for 1 week for every ten points of gravity. So if your OG is 1.050 then lager for 5 weeks.

4. Dont need one if you pitch cold with a BIG healthy starter. Taste before you go into lagering...if it tastes like buttered popcorn then do a rest, if not then dont do one.

I've got a lager coming up and would like some ideas too. As for the first question, some people suggest pitching in the 60s and then lowering it to the lager temp...though I think many people cool the word to lager temps, and then pitch.

storunner13 said:

I've got a lager coming up and would like some ideas too. As for the first question, some people suggest pitching in the 60s and then lowering it to the lager temp...though I think many people cool the word to lager temps, and then pitch.

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The only reason you'd want to pitch warm is if you dont have a big enough amount of yeast or if you are unsure of it's health, in my opinion. Pitching warmer than fermentation temps will result in diacetyl production, and you'll more than likely need to do a rest at the end of fermentation.

If you can get a big enough starter going then getting your yeast started at a cooler temperature will result in a cleaner fermentation and a cleaner end beer from what I have experienced. I try to get the wort about 5 degrees cooler than my target ferm temp to pitch, and then let it come up to target temp naturally overnight usually.

If you're doing a starter; don't stress your yeast. Keep starter (when ready) at 'similar' temperature to what you're going to pitch into. You want the yeasties to just keep on going happily rather than go "Brrrr!!!! I'm out..." or "YIPES! I'm dead..."

(generally speaking)

And of course, don't change temps on your yeast starter too rapidly either...

After doing an Ale starter last week, requiring 2L, accidentally hitting the 'lager' setting and seeing over 4.5L I think it was, yes, you'll need a good sized lager starter.

strat_thru_marshall said:

838 is the favorite.

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Plus a billionty. I've only used a few lager strains, but 838/2308 is a revelation. So clean and user-friendly!

If you don't want to spend a lot on yeast or growing up a big starter, you might want to start with a 3-gallon batch. 2 tubes of yeast right into 3 gallons of a 1.050 lager is close to ideal pitch rate, and you can harvest the cake to make just about anything. Plus, you get a couple gallons of tasty beer.

maltbarleyhops said:

im not that much of a newbie. but this will be my first attempt at a lager.

ive got:
1. cool storage with temp control
2. a great pilzen recipe
3.all equipment. (i think)

what i dont have:
1. knowledge of the process

questions:
1. after the boil, what temp to pitch at
2. good suggestions of lager yeasts for a grain bill thats going to be primarily vienna
3. average (?) lagering process time
4. ?diacetyl rest?


any and all other suggestions/information is greatly appreciated



Slainte!

Click to expand...

1. I pitch the yeast at the same temp as the wort (mid 60's) then cool together down to 55.
3. 2-3 months. The longer the better.
4. Between primary and secondary (lagering) 24-48 hours at room temp.

ok, what im gathering here is this:

say my yeast is looking for a 55 degree fermentation temp then i should cool wort to 50 deg. as well as create my starter at this same temp. go large on the starter and then let them come up to 55 deg. and then pitch the starter.
my target o.g. is 1.055 so im looking at approx. 5-6 weeks fermenting at 55 deg.

then this is where im loosing track.

should i then let my fermenting beer set out of the 55 deg cabinet and come up to room temp for a day or two and then place it back into the cabinet at 55 deg to finish off til i reach target f.g.?

by the way, thanks to all for the advice.

so the secondary is the actual "lagering". which is probably going to be at 35-40 deg F.

so primary at the 50-55 deg F for one week then onto the secondary or lagering at the 35-40 deg F range.

correct so far?

The starter can be done at room temp if you let it finish out and toss out the starter beer. Pitch when the wort is at or below ferment temp.

Don't look at a calendar, use your spidey sense (or hydrometer). If you choose to do a d-rest, warm the beer slightly as fermentation is winding down.

maltbarleyhops said:

ok, what im gathering here is this:

say my yeast is looking for a 55 degree fermentation temp then i should cool wort to 50 deg. as well as create my starter at this same temp. go large on the starter and then let them come up to 55 deg. and then pitch the starter.
my target o.g. is 1.055 so im looking at approx. 5-6 weeks fermenting at 55 deg.

then this is where im loosing track.

should i then let my fermenting beer set out of the 55 deg cabinet and come up to room temp for a day or two and then place it back into the cabinet at 55 deg to finish off til i reach target f.g.?

by the way, thanks to all for the advice.

Click to expand...

No, you don't want to 5-6 weeks at 55. Do the primary fermentation, which should take about two weeks, and then raise it up to 65 near the very end of primary. That's the "diacetyl rest". It works best if the yeast is still somewhat active, and it's recommended to do the rest when you're 75% of the way to FG. It will finish up during the diacetyl rest and should be at FG after the rest.

After the diacetyl rest, rack the beer into secondary. Then you can start lowering the temperature.

I know that a few people have done month long primaries on lagers. In my opinion, that's not necessary and I don't see the benefit. Even though I do that for ales, lagers should be "clean" and crisp so I rack off of the yeast cake when fermentation and the diacetyl rest are over.

Wow, so much to know... I hope mine work outs, I pitched a smack pack, no starter at room temp and then moved it to the fridge at 45 after a few hours, airlock took a couple days to start bubbling. After about two weeks I took a reading and it was close like 95% there and I set it on the counter for 24 hours or so and then racked it and it has been sitting at about 32 for 3 or 4 weeks now, I will crack the keg July 7th.
It was my first attempt at a true lager.

This winter, I plan to make 4 batches at once, in my garage with the heat set a couple degrees below my target temp. I will use a starter and try to time it, so all 4 are fermenting at the same time, then everyone gets a rest at the same time and then rack and chill for 2 months minimum.

Great thread on first lagers; I as well am going to give this a try, should get the yeast today to make the starter and brew in a week. It would be great if all of us lager-noobs keep the thread alive with progress/issues/success updates over the coming weeks and months.

maltbarleyhops said:

ok, what im gathering here is this:

say my yeast is looking for a 55 degree fermentation temp then i should cool wort to 50 deg. as well as create my starter at this same temp. go large on the starter and then let them come up to 55 deg. and then pitch the starter.
my target o.g. is 1.055 so im looking at approx. 5-6 weeks fermenting at 55 deg.

then this is where im loosing track.

should i then let my fermenting beer set out of the 55 deg cabinet and come up to room temp for a day or two and then place it back into the cabinet at 55 deg to finish off til i reach target f.g.?

by the way, thanks to all for the advice.

Click to expand...

What yeast strain are you planning to use? 55 seems on the high end for most lagers, if it were me I'd cold pitch at around 48 and let it warm up to 52-53 for primary. To cold pitch, get a big 4L starter going and let it ferment out completely, then cold crash it for about 48 hours before you plan to brew. When your wort is at 48F, take the flask out of the fridge and decant off most of the liquid. You should have a good thick yeast layer on the bottom, give it a big swirl and pitch the whole slurry right into the carboy...yes, do not let it warm to room temp, pitch straight from the fridge into your 48F wort.

If you do this with healthy yeast you can skip the Diacetyl rest, there wont be any in your beer. For a first lager, I'd still recommend tasting the beer after primary just to be sure, but I doubt you'll notice any popcorn!

Also, give your primary fermentation 3-4 weeks. I like to wait until I have hit my FG and there is no more signs of fermentation....and then give it another week. This gives your yeast time to go back and re-absorb most of the byproducts of fermentation, leaving you with a nice crisp clear lager with no off flavors. The yeast are a hugely important and they keep working even after you've hit FG...I think its a big mistake to pull the beer off the yeast too quickly. Give them time to complete the whole job, not just the making alcohol part.

Once you rack to secondary, put it in the fridge below 40F to lager for 5-6 weeks for best results. I like to lager in my keezer because it stays at 38F.

Are you going to be kegging or bottle conditioning?

Also...as a side note...I have made lagers by pitching a white labs vial at room temp and fermented with zero temp control and had decent results...not that I'd recommend this, but I guess the point is dont be intimidated by all the extra steps and temperature control.

These are the things that will equal a truly great result, but even without them or if something goes slightly wrong along the way you are likely to end up with highly drinkable, enjoyable beer, and often times this is the best way to learn more about each step and the process as a whole!!

I have a very estery Cerveza I made at room temp with California lager yeast, I assume there is nothing I can do about it now? It does seem to get a bit better every week, I have 12 bottles and 19L kegged, I figure I will just open 1 bottle per week until it tastes good, then crack the keg.

billc68 said:

I have a very estery Cerveza I made at room temp with California lager yeast, I assume there is nothing I can do about it now? It does seem to get a bit better every week, I have 12 bottles and 19L kegged, I figure I will just open 1 bottle per week until it tastes good, then crack the keg.

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Those esters probably wont go away. Drink it up and brew another batch! Its a cerveza so you could shove a lime in it....maybe compliment the fruity esters??

strat_thru_marshall said:

Those esters probably wont go away. Drink it up and brew another batch! Its a cerveza so you could shove a lime in it....maybe compliment the fruity esters??

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That's my plan, a couple more weeks to clear it might help too, it is ok, kinda Bud like now, the neighbours will like it, but I know another two weeks will make it clearer and hopefully a little tastier.

This is fascinating, how much variance there is in information. My vial of of WLP820 states to pitch at 70-75 degrees, How to Brew and some information in this forum show 65 and then drop the temp over the course of a few days, others say pitch closer to 50 and after 1-2 weeks raise the temp up for a couple of days then drop to as close to freezing as possible.

Based on all of this here is the direction I am taking:

I made a 1.5 quart starter on Thursday night, with the intention of cold crashing on Saturday night so I can brew on Sunday. Travel takes me out of town this week.

The starter was still going crazy on Sunday morning, so I pitched it into 65 degree wort, then placed the primary into my little fridge and set the temp control to 55. Within a few hours it was bubbling happily.

My plan is to allow this to continue for 1-2 weeks, then bring it up to room temp for two days, then drop it to as low as I can get it, about 40 degrees, for two months.

Sound good?

Thanks!

SpaceportBP said:

My vial of of WLP820 states to pitch at 70-75 degrees,

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They probably list this because they bill those as "pitchable vials" and if you pitched one vial into 5 gallons of wort a 50 degrees, it'd take a week to start fermentation. The lower your starting temp, the greater quantity of healthy yeast you're going to need to get things going in a timely manner. Also, the less off flavors and diacetyl that those yeast will produce.

strat_thru_marshall said:

They probably list this because they bill those as "pitchable vials" and if you pitched one vial into 5 gallons of wort a 50 degrees, it'd take a week to start fermentation. The lower your starting temp, the greater quantity of healthy yeast you're going to need to get things going in a timely manner. Also, the less off flavors and diacetyl that those yeast will produce.

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Right. A BIG starter, pitched cold, will give the best results. If you pitch a huge quantity of yeast (check mrmalty.com's pitching calculator to see what I mean by huge!) that is 45 degrees into 48 degree wort and let it ferment out, you probably won't even need a diacetyl rest. Some of those temperature recommendations are more for lazy brewers than for the best lagers. I mean, if the yeast package said "this fermentation will require more work- you need a big starter, to pitch cold, etc", that would sound too involved. It's really not hard to make a 4L starter, chill it, decant, and pitch cold. There are some difficulties, though- chilling the wort to under 50 degrees is challenging with an immersion chiller in the summer, for example.

When I make an ale, I don't pitch the yeast and 88 degrees and then drop the temperature 20 degrees. I pitch at fermentation temperature, with the correct amount of yeast. When I make lager, I don't pitch at 72 degrees and drop it to 50, either. I don't think that any of those recommendations will tell you that it's an ideal way to do it, but it's probably not that harmful to the beer if the temperature is reduced in a timely matter. The problem is that fermentation can be nearly over by the time the wort actually gets to the correct temperature, if it starts up fast.

For what it is worth, a quick update. I have been out of town for the past four days and have had to allow nature to take its course on this first Lager. I have the temp pegged at 52 degrees, and just took a sample tonight (cuz who can wait?). After four days, the specific gravity reading has gone from 1.064 to 1.026; very nice, steady progress. When I opened the bucket, there was a nice layer of krausen (sp) and dark ring; but much less than the other three that I have done to date. I replaced the blow off with an airlock, and it is giving a bubble every 20-30 seconds. I think I will let it go another 3-4 days and then bring it up to allow for the diacetyl rest for couple of days before racking to the secondary and dropping the temp to the lowest I can get it (40 degrees) for the next three months.

Of course I tasted the sample, and it was still very sweet and malty. I think this one will turn out great!

I have done a few lagers a few different ways as discussed and they have turned out great each time.

Kinda funny, when I started getting in to the hobby I was completely backwards. Before research, I thought I would just crank out a bunch of tasteless lagers (BMC) and work towards something like a Belgian or Stout. WRONG.......The tasties are easy...a tastless is hard. Sorry for the missplellings....

Update! Three weeks now at 40 degrees. I took a sample and although this beer is a dark brown color, it is the clearest brew to date. The gravity was 1.020; which when corrected for temp 1.019; 6.1% ABV. I am not sure if it will get any lower in the next four weeks before I have to bottle it; if not, fine, as it tastes extremely good!

How is everyone else's progressing?

SpaceportBP said:

Update! Three weeks now at 40 degrees. I took a sample and although this beer is a dark brown color, it is the clearest brew to date. The gravity was 1.020; which when corrected for temp 1.019; 6.1% ABV. I am not sure if it will get any lower in the next four weeks before I have to bottle it; if not, fine, as it tastes extremely good!

How is everyone else's progressing?

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Very nice!! I am going to check my first lager tonight. It has been in the ferm chamber (fridge) for 3.5 weeks

YooperBrew said:

Right. A BIG starter, pitched cold, will give the best results. If you pitch a huge quantity of yeast (check mrmalty.com's pitching calculator to see what I mean by huge!) that is 45 degrees into 48 degree wort and let it ferment out, you probably won't even need a diacetyl rest. Some of those temperature recommendations are more for lazy brewers than for the best lagers. I mean, if the yeast package said "this fermentation will require more work- you need a big starter, to pitch cold, etc", that would sound too involved. It's really not hard to make a 4L starter, chill it, decant, and pitch cold. There are some difficulties, though- chilling the wort to under 50 degrees is challenging with an immersion chiller in the summer, for example.

When I make an ale, I don't pitch the yeast and 88 degrees and then drop the temperature 20 degrees. I pitch at fermentation temperature, with the correct amount of yeast. When I make lager, I don't pitch at 72 degrees and drop it to 50, either. I don't think that any of those recommendations will tell you that it's an ideal way to do it, but it's probably not that harmful to the beer if the temperature is reduced in a timely matter. The problem is that fermentation can be nearly over by the time the wort actually gets to the correct temperature, if it starts up fast.

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It is a real PITA to get the wort down to 55 in the summer. In addition the 50' chiller I used a Rubbermaid tub with #10 of Ice

My first lager (German Pils) was cracked open last week at 6 weeks in the keg. Definitely not the clearest brew I ever made and I did pitch my yeast warm with no starter. The first few glasses were very disappointing but it has since become quite tasty (probably some sediment in the first few pours)
I definitely have a chill haze but other than that the estery ale like flavour is almost non existent, like I said I pitched warm so I likely got some esters. The next one will be perefect, I just wish I could get rid of this chill haze.

Great thread. Lots of good info. I'm looking to do my first lager soon and have some questions.
If you can't get your pitching temp with a wort chiller, can the beer chill over night in the fridge then pitch? Any problem with this?
What is the fridge temp verses frementing temp with lagers? Do I need the fridge to be lower than the target temp for fermenting?
When doing a pils what is the temp that it won't produce DMS anymore?

barrog said:

If you can't get your pitching temp with a wort chiller, can the beer chill over night in the fridge then pitch?

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No problem, but it's not called beer until the instant you pitch.

What is the fridge temp verses frementing temp with lagers?

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It doesn't matter what temperature the fridge is. Control the beer temp.

When doing a pils what is the temp that it won't produce DMS anymore?

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About 140ºF.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/DMS

Does everyone build your starters up soo big or just begin with that much???

You don't have to make a giant starter if you make a smaller batch (which then effectively is the giant starter for your big batch).

I think it all comes down to minimal vs. optimal vs. practical. As a beginning brewer, I made a 1.5 L starter; a step in the right direction over just shaking the vial and throwing it in, but no, not a four gallon starter which would have been the absolute best considering my OG and desire to ferment at the lowest temperature possible given my equipment. The trade-off? Maybe my FG will not be as low as I expected, maybe there will be some haze or cloudiness left, maybe some off-flavors. .. .. my point is that we noobs learn what we can, use what we can, learn from that, and then make the next batch better/stronger/faster/more tasty. You can probably make a decent, delicious lager without pitching a huge starter at 50 degrees. Will it be an award-winner? Probably not. Will it be fresher and more tasty than what you can get out of a store-bought bottle or can, probably so. This is a lot like training for a marathon. You may only be able to do a 5K run at a walking pace at first. But, you work at it, learn, get better each time, and finally reach your goal. The point is to continue to learn and improve and enjoy the time doing it.

Something tells me I need to step off my Town Crier box....

Although I won't be attempting my first lager for another 2-3 weeks, nothing stops me from obsessing on it now...

I plan to use dry yeast, S-23. and I will not make a starter. According to Mr. Malty, I should pitch 4 packs for an 11 gallon batch.

Anyone see a problem with this?

SpaceportBP said:

I think it all comes down to minimal vs. optimal vs. practical. As a beginning brewer, I made a 1.5 L starter; a step in the right direction over just shaking the vial and throwing it in, but no, not a four gallon starter which would have been the absolute best considering my OG and desire to ferment at the lowest temperature possible given my equipment. The trade-off? Maybe my FG will not be as low as I expected, maybe there will be some haze or cloudiness left, maybe some off-flavors. .. .. my point is that we noobs learn what we can, use what we can, learn from that, and then make the next batch better/stronger/faster/more tasty. You can probably make a decent, delicious lager without pitching a huge starter at 50 degrees. Will it be an award-winner? Probably not. Will it be fresher and more tasty than what you can get out of a store-bought bottle or can, probably so. This is a lot like training for a marathon. You may only be able to do a 5K run at a walking pace at first. But, you work at it, learn, get better each time, and finally reach your goal. The point is to continue to learn and improve and enjoy the time doing it.

Something tells me I need to step off my Town Crier box....

Click to expand...

beautifully stated, nice perspective for a noob like me.
"this game is supposed to be fun, damnnit"

And how do you (anyone) make your starters?

i think (?) i got some good advice over the weekend at northern brewer in milwaukee. for a czech pilsner i was told you use liquid yeast smack packs and not worry about starters for a first batch.

everfrost said:

And how do you (anyone) make your starters?

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https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Starter

TheWeeb said:

I think it all comes down to minimal vs. optimal vs. practical. As a beginning brewer, I made a 1.5 L starter; a step in the right direction over just shaking the vial and throwing it in, but no, not a four gallon starter which would have been the absolute best considering my OG and desire to ferment at the lowest temperature possible given my equipment. The trade-off? Maybe my FG will not be as low as I expected, maybe there will be some haze or cloudiness left, maybe some off-flavors. .. .. my point is that we noobs learn what we can, use what we can, learn from that, and then make the next batch better/stronger/faster/more tasty. You can probably make a decent, delicious lager without pitching a huge starter at 50 degrees. Will it be an award-winner? Probably not. Will it be fresher and more tasty than what you can get out of a store-bought bottle or can, probably so. This is a lot like training for a marathon. You may only be able to do a 5K run at a walking pace at first. But, you work at it, learn, get better each time, and finally reach your goal. The point is to continue to learn and improve and enjoy the time doing it.

Something tells me I need to step off my Town Crier box....

Click to expand...

OK, Here I go on the path of the lager. It looks like the "path of the warrior" not too much to the right nor too much to the left, keep the balance. Any suggestions on where to start?

Reading here, there everywhere I have so far:

1) Prepare a good healthy starter
2) Pitch at lower temp than fermentation to reduce or avoid a DR
3) Primary ferm for 2 weeks
4) Secondary Fermentation/Lagering for 1 week for each 10 gravity points
5) Once it's done then I'm planning to bottle it up instead of kegging.

I have a horizontal freezer and a set of temperature controls to keep the temperature controlled.

Ah, something to mention as well, besides being my first lager this will be my first homebrew.... :rockin: Too much at once?

All ideas are welcome as well as suggestions!

Cheers!

Allegrini

Good to see this thread revived! I am now lagering a 15 gallon all grain Maibock, and have picked up a few things in the nearly three years since the last post.

Make your starter out of the same grain as what is going into the batch, and ferment the starter just as you would the actual brew.

My lager profile now is 2-3 weeks at 50 degrees, 3-4 days at room temp (d-rest), transfer to secondary, and then lager as close to freezing as possible for at least six weeks. A batch of Oktoberfest I did last year lagered for six months and it was clear and crisp and buttery smooth.

Good on you to try such a brew on your first go!

TheWeeb said:

Good to see this thread revived! I am now lagering a 15 gallon all grain Maibock, and have picked up a few things in the nearly three years since the last post.

Make your starter out of the same grain as what is going into the batch, and ferment the starter just as you would the actual brew.

My lager profile now is 2-3 weeks at 50 degrees, 3-4 days at room temp (d-rest), transfer to secondary, and then lager as close to freezing as possible for at least six weeks. A batch of Oktoberfest I did last year lagered for six months and it was clear and crisp and buttery smooth.

Good on you to try such a brew on your first go!

Click to expand...

Hi there glad to hear that you are still going!

Can I pick your brain on a few things?

1) Regarding Primary vs Secondary: Is it necessary to rack the beer to a secondary after a couple of weeks or can I leave it on the primary? I can create a separate fermenter to do that but I'd prefer to avoid contamination etc etc.

2) I'm attempting a Sam Adam's Clone I found here in HBT, by MC if I'm not mistaken and it calls for:

2.1) Primary Fermentation: 14 days @ 50F
2.2) Additional Fermentation: 3 days @ 68F (gradual increase)
2.3) Secondary Fermentation: 30 days @ 42F

I'm a little scared to have to rack my first attempt.... Any suggestions?

3) Starter, OK this one is complete newbie question. You mention:
"Make your starter out of the same grain as what is going into the batch, and ferment the starter just as you would the actual brew. "
So should I make the whole process of mashing etc etc to create a little wort then chill it out and use in the starter or acquire a DME that represents the style I'm after? A bit confused here... I read some places to use DME to create the starter and circa 2L of it for a 10,5 gallon batch size.

The recipe is: Sam Adams Boston Lager clone


Once again thanks and let's keep this lager thread alive! :rockin: