Is it legal to lock a teen in a cage until 21?

CornyKegs 728
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I don't know you at all as a person, but if you're married to a woman that wants a child, and you don't... you probably should have had that discussion before you got married.
From what I can tell, you're just hestitant because of the stupid **** you see/hear on TV. But for all the thousands of teens/kids you see doing stupid **** on the internet, there are hundreds of thousands of good/safe kids you don't see. Those that do that nonsense and post on Youtube are numerous, but they are the minority.

I can't speak on the teenager front, my daughter isn't even 1, but I hope my parenting is high-quality enough that my daughter knows better than to do the stupid **** that kids do nowadays.

I have friends with teenage kids, and they don't do the extreme stupid stuff... they do stupid things like post videos of themselves lipsyncing on youtube, and have dumb kid-drama on Facebook, but that's just today's society. The internet makes everything public and immortalizes your stupidity. I'm happy the internet wasn't popular until I was older, because I would be effed.

All in all... it comes down to being a quality parent and teaching your kid to THINK. That's all I can do for my daughter. She'll get into tricky situations, I'm sure, but hopefully I've taught her enough to get out of whatever problems she has without hurting anybody or herself.

I'll echo what others have said about having a child, too. I can have horrible days at work, where my commute home involves me daydreaming about running people off the road, then I get home and my daughter smiles and *poof*, 100% of my stress and frustration disappears.

I was opposed to kids until I was in my mid-20s, and now I can't imagine a life where my daughter didn't exist.
 
In my anecdotal experience, there is nothing more fascinating in this world to young toddlers (~1 y.o. - 2 y.o.) than brewing gear. Given a shallow pan of water, a spray bottle, a vinator, and a couple of plastic bottles, my kid could have entertained himself for hours. Then at 3, he became obsessed with my scales, my refractometer, and my measuring scoops. Anything that you're interested in will be irresistible to your little scamp.
 
I think the best explanation I have for what I am feeling is the fact that I agonize over every big decision. I did about moving in with SWMBO, and then about getting married, and now about this. The difference is that getting married didnt really change anything... and fortunately or unfortunately... there is still an "out".

Every time, it seems, I start feeling like I have all the information I need and I can see myself as a father I see or read something that makes me recoil in terror. Like the dad who took his eyes off his toddler for less than 30 seconds and it wound up getting flip kicked 10 feet up in the air by a breakdancer. Seriously, think Guile from Streetfighter.

We let my landlord's daughter in the house to charge her phone while she waited for her parents and she told stories about living in our apartment. Apparently her baby brother got his head caught in the bars on the back door. Great.

Or when Im on the train and there's a beautiful cute kid. And I smile and think, "yeah I could do this"... and then the little bastard lets out a high pitched scream that all but shatters the glass windows. And everyone looks at his dad like "shut the kid up or kill it I dont care which".
 
Is having kids one of those decisions that you should just know to be the right decision one way or another? If you want them, shouldn't you just know?

I'm honestly asking, not being snarky or whatever. I didn't always KNOW I didn't want them because I'd never given it any serious consideration since it was always one of those "Future Me" decisions that I didn't need to make.

Are you perhaps just seriously considering this for the first time?
 
CreamyGoodness said:
Unfortunately all my current hobbies involve fire. That precludes the first couple years right there.
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Yeah, but the first few years precludes a whole bunch of fun things: motorcycles, backpacking, abalone diving, firearms, power tools, and liquid nitrogen, to name a few. Like great beer, your patience WILL be rewarded with all kinds of fun.

All 3 of mine LOVE fire, and can start fires with multiple methods and tend a fire with the best of them. SAFELY. I taught them all of that (much to momma's chagrin) :rockin: We've even got pictures! Here's my teenage son starting our evening campfire at hunt camp -- I won't say how ;-)

firescool.jpg
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Daddy was soooooo proud! :D
 
PistolsAtDawn said:
Is having kids one of those decisions that you should just know to be the right decision one way or another? I KNOW that I don't want 'em.

If you want them, shouldn't you just know?

I'm honestly asking, not being snarky or whatever. I didn't always KNOW I didn't want them because I'd never given it any serious consideration since it was always one of those "Future Me" decisions that I didn't need to make.

Are you perhaps just seriously considering this for the first time?
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I've been belaboring it for roughly 15 years now.
 
Have eight in rapid succession. Have the first four raise the last four.

You're welcome.
 
Hey I am kind of tired of paying everything for my kid. I think it is time she started earning her way now. So for anybody that does not know if they want a kid I have one you can rent. Heck if this goes over good I might have another sort of a old age pension kind of thing :ban:
 
Kids are... kids. I think the mordern stupidity is worse because they are no longer able to do the little stupid things. Too much regulation, not enough actual parentling. It seems the really deviant children are the ones raised by the television and other kids in the schoolyard and do not have good parental role models. I feel for you Creamy, and no one can made the descision for you and SWMBO, except for you, her and your little soldiers (accidents happen after all). Since I have never met you in person, and my only judgement is from such threads as the Okra mead, I really can't say for certain but you seem like someone who would put as much if not more attention and dedication to your spawn as you do your creations and brews. I feel that you would make a good dad if just because you care enough to be this worried about it in the first place.

Talk it all out with SWMBO. Express your concerns and if you decide to go with it, be a parent that is there. Sure, you will have lots of headaches, miss plenty of sleep, and have less money to spend on ingredients and equipment, but then again, you would be investing an a brew assistant.

Take our advice, or don't. We are the faceless legion that is the internet. We do not know crap. We could be sabataging you and laughing as you drink warm boot slime. Then again, the folks on here mostly seem to be good people who really want to help out. All in all, just remember our adviceare just our opinions and as my cousin said to me many a year ago: "Opinions are like A-holes. Everyone has one, and everyone thinks that everybody elses' stinks."

Cheers!
 
My wife and I didn't plan our first 3 kids, they just "happened." The 4th (and last) was planned. There are days when it sucks to be a parent, kids have a way of tearing you down like nothing else imaginable. But, there are days when you love it too. My oldest is turning 12 this summer (I have 4 girls, yes I know I should own lots of guns and buy stock in feminine hygiene companies...) and I don't recall not having kids anymore.

By the way, I didn't start brewing until I already had 4 kids. Don't let anyone tell you that you won't have time. It's all about prioritizing, and I feel it is a priority to have a hobby. Also, I do most of my brewing when the wife is at school on the weekends and I have all 4 kids to myself. That's the thing about kids, they are really good at entertaining themselves if you have more than one. Every parent I know who has only one kid asks to borrow one or more of mine regularly. My kids are respectful, resourceful, and can occupy themselves for hours at a time while I fiddle around in the kitchen on a brew day. BONUS: I incorporate my brewing in their learning process. My kids are home-schooled, and I use brewing as a science lesson for my oldest. We learned all about yeast propagation last week when I was making a starter for my IPA. But yes, a healthy respect for, and a fear of fire is important. My girls aren't even allowed to put things in the campfire yet (maybe the oldest this year).
 
My kids are both grown now, off to college. They are happy and healthy, didn't try any of those crazy things, that I know of. Heck, if I can successfully raise 2, you sure can. Just let them learn what not to do, by your example, and you'll be fine.

My son was planned, my daughter was not. No matter how hard it gets at times, you won't regret it. I can't even imagine them not existing. They mean everything to me. They are motivation to make the money needed to raise them. Having kids is a whole new ballgame, and you seem like a smart guy. And your wife seems like a smart lady. We need more smart people in the world to even out the stupidity of others.
 
Hmm..Is there a connection between this thread and the recent baptism thread? Did your wife catch the baby bug at the baptism? I've seen it happen many times. Weddings are dangerous places if your single. Baptisms and baby showers are dangerous places if you don't have kids. The only antidote is to take her someplace where there are a bunch of runny-nosed 3-yr olds running around. Chucky Cheese would be perfect.

As far as kids go, I have 2 boys (18 and 20). Both will be in college this Fall. I wouldn't trade it for the world. I do wish they were still little every now and again. Little kids are a blast. Once you get past the first 2-3 years of no sleep, parenthood gets much easier and much more enjoyable.

Teenagers are rough, but if you keep a sense of humor you can get through it. Remember, as a parent you have an ultimate weapon at your disposal - embarassment. Teenagers are completely horrified by their parents. Make sure to embarass your teens as much as possible when their friends are around by acting like a typical dorky parent. It's actually a lot of fun.

You're never ready for parenthood, so you just need to go for it. It'll be fine. :D
 
Also... I should note that when my daughter lets out a high-pitch scream that could shatter windows (she's discovering her voice), it doesn't bother me at all. If another kid does it, I want to punch them in the mouth.

Becoming a parent/dad doesn't mean you all-of-a-sudden love all kids... you just love yours. I was worried when I asked my wife for a baby, since I didn't really know if I'd be any good at this parenting thing. I'm pretty lazy, I love my personal time and I'm cheap... but having 1 kid with 2 parents is managable.

I didn't even start homebrewing until I had my daughter, and I've now made 21 batches of beer since December 2012. My wife and I are a good team and we coordinate ourselves so that we both get personal time to do our own things. I make beer and build stuff in my spare time, my wife reads books, shops and decorates in her spare time. We have less spare time than before, but we also have a little poop monster that lights up any room she's in, and again, I wouldn't trade that for the WORLD.
 
Hammy71 said:
I don't think I've ever met a man that was "ready" to have kids. But, I've never met a man that regretted having kids (that were planned). You'll do fine Creamy...... And like Darwin said....your married to the love of your life, do you really have a choice? There isn't a day that goes by that I'm not both terrorized and enamored with my son and daughter. Best thing ever. 10x better than a dog! LMAO
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You can have both, as is my case. My 2.5yo son thinks he is a dog sometimes. Barks at the window and wants to eat his dinner on the floor. Cracks me up every time.

And yea, the bit about your kids running in to greet you is priceless. I have a 2.5yo son and a 1.6yo daughter. When I get home they run full speed into the dining room to greet me screaming "DADDYS HOME!!!"
 
I love it when my 4.5 and 2.5yo dogs come and greet me! Having your own humans must be even better.

I seriously feel the same as the OP. I'm 30 and my wife is still in college. I'm putting her through school and she will put me through school afterward so it looks like we'll be around 35-40 by the time we're ready to start living life. I think we're going to travel for a while(something we've always wanted to do). It looking like we'll be 40+ before we will want any kids. At that point who knows what kids will be into? Also, kids had after 40 have all sorts of extra risks for mother and child. I never was fond of kids and I think my wife is finally converting to my way of thinking....which makes me happy and sad. All of my friends have kids and they're all locked down and miserable. However, hopefully they'll have someone to take care of them when they're old, right?
 
we've got 2 boys: 5 & 2. the 5 y/o is already defiant toward me (family tradition) and the 2 y/o is gonna be quite the scrapper. I figure the teens are gonna be rough, but you get what you give and I gave a lot of hell in my teens (and before). lets roll with the punches!:rockin:
 
m3n00b said:
I love it when my 4.5 and 2.5yo dogs come and greet me! Having your own humans must be even better.

I seriously feel the same as the OP. I'm 30 and my wife is still in college. I'm putting her through school and she will put me through school afterward so it looks like we'll be around 35-40 by the time we're ready to start living life. I think we're going to travel for a while(something we've always wanted to do). It looking like we'll be 40+ before we will want any kids. At that point who knows what kids will be into? Also, kids had after 40 have all sorts of extra risks for mother and child. I never was fond of kids and I think my wife is finally converting to my way of thinking....which makes me happy and sad. All of my friends have kids and they're all locked down and miserable. However, hopefully they'll have someone to take care of them when they're old, right?
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Just a quick question on this one.. Have your friends actually told you that they are locked down and miserable are is just a perception thing?

I will say to each their own, but I was 30 and still in school when we got married. A couple of months later, my wife was pregnant (totally planned it that way). My oldest was a year old when I graduated from college. Let me tell you, it sucked to take college Algebra at a community college (a six week summer school course) and whatever English class I was taking at the time at the University with a one month old kid, but I survived. I pulled all nighters with a baby and homework pretty often and worked 30+ hours a week as well. But I was never miserable. Way tired, but never miserable. I've actually been more miserable since I started my career (a change is coming) than I ever was when life was really crazy.

I had a much longer response, but I will say this. My wife and I really wanted kids so my views are clouded on this one. We decided that we could put off the traveling stuff with each other once our kids are grown. My parents and my "other parents" (my best friend's since I was 10) travel like crazy now. My parents do the road trip thing every summer. His parents are in Cancun as we speak and do cruises and go to Europe frequently. Obviously, we need to be in good health to that stuff but I think it will be hecka fun to travel in my later years. If we start when I am 60 (just throwing it out there), my daughter will be 24 and my boys will be 29 and 27. I won't have to worry about them much.

But hey, if you folks don't want to have kids, be proud of your decision (no sarcasm here). Just don't make excuses for it. As my grandmother said (she had 7 of them in a 3 BR, 1100 SQFT house), you can always find room for a baby in your life if you really want one.
 
Noooooo, don't do it! All they do is eat the last "Little Debbie" snack cake you hid in the back pantry and the last glass of milk to go with it before you get home from work...lol.. anyways.. my first was an accident, knocked the wife up 2 months before our wedding after 3 years of dating. The other 3 is another story but decided to have them sooner rather than later.lol. After the first, the other kiddos were definitely easier! You know my feeling on sheltering and a lot of mistakes made in life are from not knowing what the result could be. My oldest is13 now and whats funny is she wants nothing to do with social media. She is her own person and I have faith she won't fall into something from peer pressure. I hope the younger 3 will learn from her but can tell 1or2 will be problematic because I know there personality. I still get daily hugs from all of them and have great relationships! So, I hope the sheltering part answered your title question because even keeping them locked up they will eventually get out :mug:
 
Right there with ya. I thought I'd make it through at least the first year w/o the topic. nope, six months and it comes up weekly (at least). I also contract work so it's been feast or famine lately, kinda hard to plan. At least I made it to 35, I guess I figure if they really act up in their teens I'll be 50 and will only have to rot in jail for less time. Meh,
 
Creamy, the only reason you should have kids is if you cannot imagine your life without them. DO NOT let yourself be pressured into having kids you're not 100% certain you want. You will resent it forever.

Deciding not to have kids has been one of the best decisions my wife and I could possibly have made. They say, "Having kids changes everything." Why would I want to "change everything?" What's so bad about your life right now that you feel this need to "change everything?" My life is pretty sweet as it is. My wife and I can focus on each other, we sleep in on weekends, we travel whenever we want, we have more than enough money, we have a nice big, clean house, we enjoy our peace and quiet, we can engage in whatever hobbies we feel like, we get to go out to concerts and sporting events, I don't have to deal with disgusting diapers or endure insipid and vapid books and TV shows. Not to mention the constant worrying about all of the dangerous and negative influences that could affect my offspring, a few of which you outlined in your first post.

I feel kids are a magnifying glass. For a happy, stable couple, they can magnify that relationship and make it stronger than ever. But for a couple with any problems whatsoever, the kid will become a wedge, and before you know it, you'll be resenting each other and fighting.

I never felt a strong desire to have kids. I always just kind of assumed I would, because that's what people do. But once I hit my 20's, I realized I had a pretty sweet deal. I was dating the love of my life, I was partying on the weekends with friends, I was traveling, had extra cash, going to the movies, just generally enjoying life. Then as I got older, it occured to me - it didn't have to stop. As various friends and relatives got older and had kids, they gradually stopped coming out to events, festivals, concerts, camping, and traveling, always playing the "we've got kids" card. The more this happened, the more I pitied them and the more I felt my wife and I made the right decision (she never wanted kids).

I don't find kids cute. When people fawn over a little toddler doing something "cute," I have no interest whatsoever. Frankly, I find the vast majority of kids annoying. They're loud, smelly, selfish, and I have no interest at all in interacting with them. I know their parents think they're "cute," but that's because it's their kid. I would vastly prefer they keep their sticky, disease-ridden hands away from my pants.

I have had numerous parents (almost always single mothers) candidly admit that their lives were better without children. Granted, those are the ones statistically more likely to be miserable, dealing with both the financial disadvantage of trying to raise a family on a single income instead of two, while simultaneously shouldering the entire burden of running a household with no help from a partner. But still, like I said before, for a couple with latent problems, having a kid will almost certainly amplify those problems, and could turn a tolerable marriage into a looming divorce.

Besides, with the economy in the mess it's in, and with the world more dangerous than it's ever been, with global warming threatening to drown us all, with economies crumbling left and right and the US buckling under it's unbearable debt load, and the looming, crushing burden of an unsustainable Social Security program, does anybody really think the world will be better in another 25 years? Would you really want to bring a child into such a world?

Anyway, I'm sure you and your wife will be happy no matter what you choose. Good luck! :)
 
m3n00b said:
All of my friends have kids and they're all locked down and miserable. However, hopefully they'll have someone to take care of them when they're old, right?
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Heh, I really dislike that argument. I tell people my wife and I don't want kids, and they follow-up with, "But who's going to take care of you when you get old?"

The same person who's going to be taking care of you: the nurses at the retirement home.

Go to a retirement home and ask the residents how often their kids visit. I suspect it will be quite eye-opening. Is 18 years of sucking your life energy worth a few hours of pity-visits per month?
 
kombat said:
Besides, with the economy in the mess it's in, and with the world more dangerous than it's ever been, with global warming threatening to drown us all, with economies crumbling left and right and the US buckling under it's unbearable debt load, and the looming, crushing burden of an unsustainable Social Security program, does anybody really think the world will be better in another 25 years? Would you really want to bring a child into such a world?
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I share this view. I mean, I'm sure there are always these sort of concerns for each generation considering having children, but I really don't see good things down the road with the world economy. I'm fairly confident that this house of cards the US has built is going to collapse in the next few decades. I don't want to bring any children into this world just for them to have to face that sort of life.

Then there's also the genetic aspect: my family's got some health problems on both sides, and I've already started seeings some of those bad genetics in my own health. I don't want to pass those things along to anyone else.

kombat said:
Heh, I really dislike that argument. I tell people my wife and I don't want kids, and they follow-up with, "But who's going to take care of you when you get old?"

The same person who's going to be taking care of you: the nurses at the retirement home.

Go to a retirement home and ask the residents how often their kids visit. I suspect it will be quite eye-opening. Is 18 years of sucking your life energy worth a few hours of pity-visits per month?
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Yeah, this also bugs me. Having kids so someone is there to take care of you when you're old seems to me to be the single most selfish reason one could conjure up for having children, yet I see this mentioned all the time as a good reason. I guess that would be fine if it was just a fact of the matter and played no part in the decision to have children. But I have a feeling that's not the case 9 times out of 10.

There are things I would like to do with my life. Those things probably won't be possible if I were to have children. My girlfriend has two older friends who retired fairly early. They're really great people and they love her like she was their own. She refers to them as her "Charleston Parents", which is fitting I think. They have a great relationship. Sort of a mentors-mentee sort of thing. I think I'd prefer to have this sort of thing going with someone rather than have my own kids.
 
Kombat has a really valid point... you really shouldn't have one unless you WANT one.

My wife was uncertain on whether or not she wanted a child (but she sucks with big decisions), so I asked her if we could have one because I decided I wanted a life-long experiment. I see having a child as fun biological, sociological and psychological experiment. To me, this is pretty much the most entertaining thing I could do with my life.

I was vehemently opposed to having children up until I was 26-27 and then I thought it was a possibility, and when I was 29 I decided I wanted 1, and only 1. I have my daughter, and there's nothing else I'd rather have in my life than her.

My idea is that with 1 child, my wife and I can do all the things that kombat speaks of, and still enjoy having a child - albeit we'll have the lifetime of worrying that we did a good job raising her and she won't do the stupid **** outlined in the OP.

Since having our child, I've picked up homebrewing and beefed up my preserves-making, gardening and wood-working. My wife has gotten into interior decorating and is trying her hand at authoring her first novel. Kids only negatively impact your life if you perceive it that way. I'm indifferent on how often I see my friends, and my good friends make the effort to accommodate my adjusted schedule. If my friends can't be bothered to accommodate my daughter's naps or activities, for the first year or two, they can go screw themselves.

My wife and I have both lived very full lives up to now, and we decided to enhance our lives with a little poop-factory. My wife and I are both children at heart, and now with an actual child involved, we can do all the things we love with her, and we don't look like crazy people. With a child, you get to experience the world a-new through their eyes. It's pretty neat.

But again... if you don't want a kid, you might not enjoy it as much as others (I've seen some accident-parents that LOVE it, some not so much). You need to have that urge to create life and see it grow, imo. I would have been a TERRIBLE father at 20-25. I was ill-equipped as an adult, and would not have made a good parent at all... I would have resented my child for holding me back from doing things I wanted to do. I've since done a whole chunk of those life-goals and developed a ton as a person, and figured I could put some life-goals on the back-burner until my daughter is robust enough to join me on my adventures :D Not planning on dying any time soon, so I still have a solid 50 years to do everything I want to do :)
 
kombat said:
Then as I got older, it occured to me - it didn't have to stop. As various friends and relatives got older and had kids, they gradually stopped coming out to events, festivals, concerts, camping, and traveling, always playing the "we've got kids" card. The more this happened, the more I pitied them and the more I felt my wife and I made the right decision (she never wanted kids).
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eh, i wouldn't pity them. the "we've got kids card"....that's just something we like to use to get out of hanging out with people we don't like, or get out of things we really didn't want to do but never had a valid excuse to not do it.

i also learned that some single mothers regret having their kids. shocking.
 
Hey, did anyone bring up the whole propogation of the species thing? That's kinda the whole point after all, isn't it?

We're evolutionarily hard-wired to have kids. You know - passing on our genes and what not.

That's no reason to have kids, but seeing that humans are just a bunch of over-evolved chimps, it should probably be part of the conversation.

I'm just throwing it out there for discussion. :D
 
b-boy said:
Hey, did anyone bring up the whole propogation of the species thing? That's kinda the whole point after all, isn't it?

We're evolutionarily hard-wired to have kids. You know - passing on our genes and what not.

That's no reason to have kids, but seeing that humans are just a bunch of over-evolved chimps, it should probably be part of the conversation.

I'm just throwing it out there for discussion. :D
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Exactly! No offense creamy, but this "my wife and I are thinking about having kids" is total milksop.

Your genes want you to do what's natural: organize a raiding party and strike the nearest vulnerable village. Claim their women and horses. So say we all.
 
motobrewer said:
eh, i wouldn't pity them. the "we've got kids card"....that's just something we like to use to get out of hanging out with people we don't like, or get out of things we really didn't want to do but never had a valid excuse to not do it.
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Would you PLEASE quit giving away the secrets!!!!!! :mad: ;)
 
my wife & I had kids because we wanted them. our first was not an accident, he was a surprise. he showed up a little sooner than we expected. if we could go back & change it, we wouldn't because he's our son. we wouldn't change that for anything.
 
motobrewer said:
eh, i wouldn't pity them. the "we've got kids card"....that's just something we like to use to get out of hanging out with people we don't like, or get out of things we really didn't want to do but never had a valid excuse to not do it.

i also learned that some single mothers regret having their kids. shocking.
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I think most parents are guilty of thst stuff. Dreading an event and one of the kids wakes up with sniffles? Darn it, we can't make it. Don't want to get everyone else sick of course.
 
Here's another thing I kind of realized, that there are people who love their pets but either don't want kids or think they'll hate kids. Now, my wife was sort of in the former category but loves our daughter, loves playing with her, loves feeding her, loves cleaning the tub after Baby Portion craps during a bath, etc; she used to love her dog and was relatively sure that she wouldn't like having a kid. Surprise, surprise. Point being: if you loved your pet, you'll probably love having a kid (at least in the larval stage). Not to say that there won't be former cat owners whose cat dies, then they have a kid and want to throw themselves into a cement truck.
 
MeatyPortion said:
Here's another thing I kind of realized, that there are people who love their pets but either don't want kids or think they'll hate kids. Now, my wife was sort of in the former category but loves our daughter, loves playing with her, loves feeding her, loves cleaning the tub after Baby Portion craps during a bath, etc; she used to love her dog and was relatively sure that she wouldn't like having a kid. Surprise, surprise. Point being: if you loved your pet, you'll probably love having a kid (at least in the larval stage). Not to say that there won't be former cat owners whose cat dies, then they have a kid and want to throw themselves into a cement truck.
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My dogs don't talk back to me.
 

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