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Dont heat the cider, it will make it hard to clear. I usually use a mix of turbinado sugar and corn sugar to boost the sg up to about 1.060 or 1.065 if the sugar is not already that high to start. I use better bottles and roll them on the floor with a stopper to dissolve the sugar, although thats not really an option if you are using a bucket. For a dry cider, 1118 is OK but I'd use D47, 71B, or Young cider yeast instead if you have that available. I force carbonate with CO2
 
I'm not sure this will be of much use to anyone but here goes.

My ciders i use 2-LBS table sugar per gallon of juice
so
5 gals of tree top apple juice (sometimes Motts if the store is out of tree top)
10 LBS table sugar (wal mart brand cheap stuff)
1 packet Lalvin EC-1118 yeast

IMHO it gets you the best of both worlds because
1-there is a lot of residual sugars so it tastes great/not dry at all
2-it will knock you on your ass from the ABV content

hope this helps
cheers
 
I think I'm just going to take your advice and ferment with nottingham and the 2/3 turbinado, and 1/3 dextrose. How dry does it get with Nottingham? You said something about being able to pull it right off the yeast cake to stop the fermentation? I take it that this means it's a bottom fermenting yeast. Will there be enough active yeast to carb my bottles?
 
Well anyway, it's made, ended up adding 2 and 2/3 cups of organic golden turbinado can sugar, and 1 and 1/3 cup of dextrose. OG was around 1.055, and I ended up using Lalvin 1118. Hoping for the best !
 
I'm not sure this will be of much use to anyone but here goes.

My ciders i use 2-LBS table sugar per gallon of juice
so
5 gals of tree top apple juice (sometimes Motts if the store is out of tree top)
10 LBS table sugar (wal mart brand cheap stuff)
1 packet Lalvin EC-1118 yeast

IMHO it gets you the best of both worlds because
1-there is a lot of residual sugars so it tastes great/not dry at all
2-it will knock you on your ass from the ABV content

hope this helps
cheers

Jumping Jiminy Jebus. I bet it's like 20% ABV so yeah, I can imagine it could hurt you at that point. I'm betting between 1.1-1.2 OG. Hope you're drinking it in shot glasses. ;)
 
I think I'm just going to take your advice and ferment with nottingham and the 2/3 turbinado, and 1/3 dextrose. How dry does it get with Nottingham?

Nottingham will take it all the way dry if you let it. Not a great choice for a dry cider IMHO. Nottingham tastes a lot better with some residual sugar.

You said something about being able to pull it right off the yeast cake to stop the fermentation? I take it that this means it's a bottom fermenting yeast.

That works, but only with low nutrient juice. With store bought juice, it would be a bit of a crap shoot

Will there be enough active yeast to carb my bottles?

If you successfully remove all the yeast on the rack, no. If you dont remove all the yeast, then yes - but you then need to be extremely careful not to overcarb and burst your bottles. If you are doing a small batch, and using Nottingham, you can simply put them in the fridge when they are carbed, and leave them in the fridge until you drink them. This only works with a few Ale yeasts like Nottingham, S04, etc. If you want to bottle condition a sweet cider, or even a semi-dry cider, the most reliable way to do so is to use the instructions in the sticky on bottle pasteurization.

BTW - you can use the search function to find answers to most of your questions.
 
Jesus christ I imagine, what's the OG on that?

I haven't been able to pull an accurate reading with that much sugar as it does not fully disolve into the juice and just eventually gets consumed by the champgne yeast.I read somewhere that Lalvin EC-1118 can hit around 18-20% ABV and with this i'm sure it's hitting it.I'm temped to `Jack`(freeze distill) part of the batch of this i started earlier on today when it's ready.
 
I don't "stop" fermentation. I let it go its course. Basically i just wait till the airlock ceases activity. Then wait an extra week for good measure. Racking can slow down fermentation a good bit because it lessens the total amount of yeast in w/e it is you're making but it in of itself wont bring fermentation to a halt. I do beleive you could use campden tablets to kill off yeast when you feel that the time has come. Personally i just wait fermentaion out then place the cider in the freezer for roughly 30-60 minutes.
 
when and how do you stop fermentation by racking?

Cold crashing

#1 Rack to a fresh vessel.
#2 Crash cool - store the vessel in an environment where it will be very cold but not freezing, 34-36 is good.
#3 After 48 hours or so rack again to a new vessel.

Moving the fermented liquid off of most of the yeast in #1, #2 puts the remaining yeast to sleep and causes them to drop out of suspension, and then #3 racks off of any yeast that dropped during #2. I did a few times with success, but have recently switched to sorbate / sulfite.
 
Kevin,
We talked about meeting up sometime. I'll be down your way this weekend (in Crozet). Not sure if you have the time or how much time I'll have, but I'll bring a few ciders and meads with me. :)
I'm at KurtS2 at gmail.
 
I was planning on making a cider with the SO4 yeast and unpasteurized apple juice from a local orchard

Do you recommend getting to a certain sg with sweeteners? or just relying on the juice alone? I'm hoping to ferment to dry then do a little backsweetening experiment (brown sugar, syrup, honey and a few others) and have the cider finish at about 7% abv
 
Do you recommend getting to a certain sg with sweeteners? or just relying on the juice alone?

I prefer to use just the juice, but if the starting SG is below 1.060, I'll bump it up to 1.060, to 1.065 with a mix of turbinado and corn sugar, which makes it easier to stop the fermentation leaving some residual sweetness. If you're going to ferment it to dry, then it doesnt much matter, other than making sure SG is high enough to hit the SG that you're going for.
 
Kevin, wanted to thank you again for all of the advice in this thread. Kegged a batch yesterday and loving the taste. Brupaks, turbinado/corn sugar on some store bought juice I added some Granny Smith to. Looking forward to fresh juice! I'm passing through Cville twice next week to scout for a day trip later in the year to get juice. Have an estimate for a good time later in the year I should plan for, or care to pm a few places to try? Thanks again
 
I've been reading through a lot of this thread and there is really some great information here.

Has there been talk about pitch rate somewhere earlier in this thread? For a 5 gallon batch of cider at around 1.060, is an 11g pack of dry yeast like S-04 a typical pitch rate? Also, do I need to worry about aerating the must before pitching like I would with beer?

It sounds like we want the yeast to use up all the nitrogen so that when we stop fermentation, there is not any left for any wild yeast or bacteria growth. I don't know if pitch rate is an important factor in this. Likewise, I'm not sure if yeast nutrient would be a good or bad thing.
 
I haven't been doing this for long, but I've been experimenting and taking crazy amounts of notes as I go and I've experimented with both things you're asking about.

Aeration is always good, although it's much more important with beer than cider. Boiling removes much of the suspended gases in your wort making aeration much more necessary. I never aerated until my fourth batch, and when I did, I made the exact same cider as my second batch only I aerated it. Batch #2 had no noticeable sulfur smell when it was fermenting, but when I cleaned the airlock there was a lot of sulfur trapped in that water and it stunk. Batch #4 had no sulfur smell during ferment or in airlock water and it finished a full 24hrs faster than batch #2.

On yeast starters... I found out I'd been underpitching my liquid yeasts so on batches 5 and 6 I used starters. Batch #5 was a dry yeast with starter, 6 was a liquid yeast with starter. My starters were as ghetto as they get. A couple tablespoons of yeast nutrient and a couple tablespoons of table sugar in a glass of warm water. I tented them with foil and let them sit overnight. One finished in two days, the other finished in 3. Similar recipes in the past took 5 to 6 to ferment. But even better, batch 5 was a ginger cider that I had made previously with just a packet of dry yeast and some nutrient. On the first run, It had a hot flavor that was horrible until it had conditioned about 4 weeks. Last night I kegged the one that I had done with a starter. Only 9 days after pitching, it was already super clear and the hot flavors were practically non-existent. I'll be using starters for everything from now on. (i'll probably do a better quality starter for anything that's going to yield more than about 6.5% abv though)
 
I am a newb here, just bottled half my first batch of beer, the other half is cold crashing.

I do not have much interest in cider, but my girlfriend does. I was thinking, since I am learning some brewing and would have most of the stuff needed, of brewing up a cider for her. She hates beer, and only drinks sweet white wines, so it won't be anything dry or bitterish.

Just joined the forum a few days ago and after thinking of the cider, I decided to look at this thread. As I am reading your wonderful post (thanks a bundle), I see that you mention the apples available in central VA for cider. I thought, neat as I am in central VA. Then for some reason I look at you name (hadn't before), and see CvilleKevin. I too am in cville!

So, before asking any newbish specifics about cider brewing, I would like to ask you, is Carter's Mtn a good place to get fresh cider from? And do they UV/Pasteurize? I think for safety sake my first batches would use pasteurized cider. It would be perfect as my girl already wants to pick apples there this fall.

Again, thanks for the great info (can't wait to read the rest of the thread, but its loooong). And if you like beer, I think my new local fave is DB's Turbo Cougar, even though I am normally an IPA/APA freak, try it if you haven't!
 
Noticed this at the bottom of my AHA email today.
Cider Yeast Comparison Research
The American Homebrewers Association Research & Education Fund is up and running, and the first completed report is live. Ever wondered if you could use a different yeast in cidermaking than the usual English cider strain? Well, you aren't alone. Our first report examines the difference among a variety of White Labs yeast strains to ferment apple juice. You can download this exclusive members-only content on HomebrewersAssociation.org.

One particularly interesting note from the report was that WLP775 didn't come out on top for "consumer preference" in any of the tastings they conducted.
 
For a 5 gallon batch of cider at around 1.060, is an 11g pack of dry yeast like S-04 a typical pitch rate?

Yes, thats plenty.

Also, do I need to worry about aerating the must before pitching like I would with beer?

No. I also always pitch dry and have never had any issues. Less stuff to clean

Is Carter's Mtn a good place to get fresh cider from?

The quality is OK. They are pricey and they dont press on premises, which means no quantity discounts and the cider may have been sitting for weeks. OTOH, if you already there picking apples its easy enough to pick up a gallon

And do they UV/Pasteurize? I think for safety sake my first batches would use pasteurized cider.

Yes they do. Although its not something you really need to worry about. The alcohol will kill any e coli.

Starting in mid September, I'll be doing some juice runs to Showalters Orchard, which has great quality juice and very reasonable price for 100+ gallons. If you have a carboy and want to get in on a juice run this fall, PM me with your email address and I'll send you the details.

One particularly interesting note from the report was that WLP775 didn't come out on top for "consumer preference" in any of the tastings they conducted.

Yep, that doesnt surprise me. It also doesnt surprise me that an English ale came out on top, although IMHO Notty, S04 or Brupaks are all better choices for that style. Cheaper, easier to store, and faster starts.

I was also surprised that they used Kirkland brand from Costco as their base mix. That would be like saying "we are going to compare these 7 wine yeasts and to have a consistent baseline we will use Welsh's concord grape juice". edit - in fairness, I have tried to make cider from supermarket juice in a long time. maybe Kirkland's kicked it up a notch since then

I've tried a couple dozen of the White Labs yeast, including all the yeasts in their list except for the WLP862 Cry Havoc. The best one IMHO is the WLP041 Pacific Ale yeast. It ferments slow and is easy to crash. Its the only WLP yeast that I still use. edit - Its a good one for early in the season when temps are warmer, but too slow and prone to wild yeast takeover once the average temp gets below 60. I've had really good results with WLP005, but it is also hit or miss when wild yeast is present, regardless of temp. I might try WLP005 again this season with some sulfited juice.

After giving up sulfites for the past 5yrs, I experimented this year with adding sulfiting to 4 keg batches: 3 before and 1 after the ferment. The juice was nice and tart to start and I used 1/8tsp in 5 gal. For the first several months the sulfited batches were decent but not as good as the unsulfited batches. S.O. could not drink the sulfited batches at all for the first 4 months. After about 6 months it started to turn around and now the sulfited batches taste a lot better a year later. The unsulfited batches have similar flavor but a noticeably more acidic finish. Usually that will turn around over the next year. The sulfited batches finish a lot smoother at yr 1. This coming season I'm planning on sulfiting about a third of the batches and see how that goes
 
CvilleKevin said:
Yep, that doesnt surprise me. It also doesnt surprise me that an English ale came out on top, although IMHO Notty, S04 or Brupaks are all better choices for that style. Cheaper, easier to store, and faster starts.

I was also surprised that they used Kirkland brand from Costco as their base mix. That would be like saying "we are going to compare these 7 wine yeasts and to have a consistent baseline we will use Welsh's concord grape juice". edit - in fairness, I have tried to make cider from supermarket juice in a long time. maybe Kirkland's kicked it up a notch since then

I've tried a couple dozen of the White Labs yeast, including all the yeasts in their list except for the WLP862 Cry Havoc. The best one IMHO is the WLP041 Pacific Ale yeast. It ferments slow and is easy to crash. Its the only WLP yeast that I still use. edit - Its a good one for early in the season when temps are warmer, but too slow and prone to wild yeast takeover once the average temp gets below 60. I've had really good results with WLP005, but it is also hit or miss when wild yeast is present, regardless of temp. I might try WLP005 again this season with some sulfited juice.

I wish they had done a few more yeast strains myself for the tasting panel. It's great info, especially since WLP862 is my house strain, so I can just make a nice batch of cider from a washed batch. I would probably get some Notty dry if I didn't have the WLP002 or the cry havoc handy over the S04. The S04 gets very bready very quickly if its too warm where Notty is more forgiving.

As for the Kirkland brand cider, it's very good and not available everywhere. They must source it regionally. It's the brown fresh pressed cider like you get if you go to an apple orchard. i do t know how it is pasteurized though. my only question would be I have heard that the bitter apples that aren't for eating make the best cider and all of those are pretty sweet. Would there be a better source? It seems most people get juice very similar to this (sweet drinking cider) and put up good results.

The WLP862 does great all around. It ferments well right at 70 and does great in the mid 50's too. It does put off some mild sulphur compounds at lower temps, but is a clean lager strain too (I make an Octoberfest with it). I kinda like it at about 65 for a lot of reasons. Mostly it just gives me a clean fermentation there, even on an IIPA, and then I can let it rise to 70F for full fermentation and cleanup.
 
As for the Kirkland brand cider, it's very good and not available everywhere. They must source it regionally.

Its been a while since I tried to find a decent supermarket juice for brewing. It was all universally pretty bad, even the stuff that tries to emulate fresh pressed. Some of the commercial juicers may have got better, particularly if they have a local processing plant and its apple season. I always thought it would be really cool if one or more of the commercial juice makers put out an apple juice mix that was meant for fermenting. Probably not as good as fresh, but at least it would be more like buying brewers malt extract vs malted milk malt.

Would there be a better source?

Sure, you're in Ohio, which has plenty of orchards. Any press operator who knows even a tiny bit about apples for hard cider is going to be able to set you up better than supermarket juice. See: http://www.orangepippin.com/orchards/united-states/ohio
 
This past Sunday, a bunch of friends came over to help me rate a bunch of ciders from last season and a few from previous seasons. We made it through 25 bottles, as well as making a dent in a couple kegs

25-batches_zps0720ca57.jpg


Most everyone filled out rating sheets and 16 folks remained coherent enough to remember to give them back to me, including half dozen or so intrepid (and/or crazy) folks who managed to make it through all 25!

The top three scores were all from the same batch of juice - Stayman, Albemarle Pippen, Winesap, pressed 11/19/12. Not sure if that was a particularly great batch of juice or maybe because we had already put away a dozen bottles by then.

The winner of the evening, with an average score of 8.17 was #14, fermented with Bavarian Wheat yeast (Wy3056), no sulfites, and crashed at 1.012. It scored a bit higher than an identical batch, which was sulfited before pitching the yeast to kill the wild yeast. The sulfited batch scored 7.375. Personally, I liked the sulfited batch better. It didnt have as much character, but tasted cleaner to me - I was in the minority.

Close behind, with a score of 8.125 was #13, fermented with Brupaks Ale yeast, after sulfiting to kill the wild yeast and crashed at 1.008. The unsulfited version of this was really good as well, but unfortunately I didnt save a bottle from that batch for comparison

Third runner up, with a score of 7.71 was #16, fermented with WLP041 Pacific Ale yeast, no sulfites, crashed at 1.012.

25emptybottles_zps3173aa86.jpg


In general, I'd say that the sulfited batches were not quite as good as their unsulfited counterparts. However, all three sulfited batches managed to survive almost a year and still score at least in the mid 7's. There were a few unsulfited batches that scored better (and IMHO were better), but also quite a few unsulfited batches from last year that didnt even make it to this tasting because they got acidic, probably from the residual wild yeast working. Once they get acidic, it can take another year for them to mellow out enough to be drinkable again. This season I'm planning on doing more sulfited batches to get some more side by side comparisons.

Interestingly, cider #3 (Cortland, Grimes Golden, Empire, Gala, Summer Rambo, Jonathan - pressed 9/13/12, fermented with Weihenstephan Wheat yeast , and crashed at 1.010) only scored a 6.1, despite having won gold at the Dominion cup a few weeks ago. I'd have to agree that it wasnt as good as a lot of the others and it wasnt as good as I remembered. It seemed to have become more acidic with age. It may have been the bottles - this was from the first batch of juice last year and the ones that I entered in the Dominion Cup had been stored in brown 12 oz bottles since last December, whereas the one we drank on Sunday was stored in a clear one liter bottle

Lots of others scored in the low to mid 7s, so overall a pretty good night....although not without a few duds. There was a batch from 2008, Stayman and Winesap apples, fermented with wild yeast and stopped at 1.000 with sulfite and sorbate, that got a whopping 2.67, which was probably more than it deserved. I only used half the recommended amount of sorbate, but 5 years later, you could still taste it. There were 3 other dry ciders and they all got average scores of under 5, although a few people liked them.
 
You need to write a book dude. The amount of information here is staggering.
 
@CvilleKevin

What %ABV have the above mentioned ciders?
 
Hi CvilleKevin,

Firstly thank you for your continued contributions to this thread, I am one of the many who have come to the forum late and spent hours reading through 70 odd pages! This thread is a reference for cider makers the world over and something to be proud of.

Just wondering, have you ever sulphited a batch and then left it to the wild yeast? This seems to be the preferred method for a lot of good English & French ciders. Admittedly, it will be impossible to crash and is more suited to the later season apples for cool fermentation and would probably need to be aged for a bit but I would be interested to see how it stacks up against others.

Keep up the good work!
 
If you cold crash, it wont bottle carbonate

@all

How much truth is in this? Cold crashing doesn't kill the yeast, just turns it dormant. If I'll backsweeten it, will it not be enough remaining yeast to carb my bottles?!?

Ty
 
Just wondering, have you ever sulphited a batch and then left it to the wild yeast?

No - I've done a lot of batches with wild yeast, but I've never sulfited any of them. Some of them were really good but for me wild yeast is more work and less reliable than using cultured yeast

How much truth is in this? Cold crashing doesn't kill the yeast, just turns it dormant. If I'll backsweeten it, will it not be enough remaining yeast to carb my bottles?!?

It depends on your process. If you rack the cider when the yeast are dormant, and dont disturb any of the yeast, then the yeasts are for all intents and purposes, gone and the cider is still unless you force carbonate it. If you pick up any yeast when you are racking, then yes, it will carb your bottles. In that case, make sure you read the sticky on pasteurization
 
No - I've done a lot of batches with wild yeast, but I've never sulfited any of them. Some of them were really good but for me wild yeast is more work and less reliable than using cultured yeast

The reason I ask about the sulphiting part is because I have read (from Andrew Lea's website: http://www.cider.org.uk/frameset.htm) that by adding the sulphite you knock out the bad yeast allowing the good to take over.
Specifically he said "In simple terms what happens is that the sulphur dioxide inhibits the growth of most spoilage yeasts and bacteria, while permitting the desirable fermenting yeasts (such as Saccharomyces cerevisiae or uvarum) to multiply and to dominate the conversion to alcohol."

I am at the stage now where I am ready to give wild yeast a go. I'm looking forward to seeing the differences it has to flavour and smell.

Cheers,

Fergal.
 
by adding the sulphite you knock out the bad yeast allowing the good to take over.

Hmm, might be worth a shot - although the main issue I've had with wild yeasts has been keeping the fermentation under control and stopping them before they get too dry. If you have a controlled environment and can keep the temp around 55-60, that would help a lot.
 
Yeah I have a feeling it would be very difficult to control a wild yeast fermentation, maybe if you could fit it in the fridge and keep it a constant temperature you might have a chance of catching it at your desired sg. Whether you could crash it at this point is another matter altogether mind you!
 
First Juice of the 2013 Season! - The mix was Cortland, Gala and Jonathan apples. Between myself and friends we got 210 gallons. It smells great. Gala is probably my favorite aroma apple, they smell like Cinnamon when they are crushed. Not a lot of sweetness in the juice up front, nice flavor and mouthfeel, maybe a little thin on the swallow. Nice tart finish. The SG was lower than usual, only 1.045, probably because of all the rain we had in August. I filled 8 carboys and bumped them all with 6oz/gal of turbinado/corn sugar mix.

I sulfited 4 of the carboys with 1/8tsp in 6gal (half the recommended amount). I'll pitch these tomorrow with Brupaks, 3056, 3068, and WLP005. No sulfite on the other four. I pitched those this afternoon with Brupaks, 3056, Notty, and WLP041. They are all just starting to take off.

Basement temp is 66. Its supposed to get up to 80 outside tomorrow, but tonight is nice and cool, so I've got the basement windows open and a fan running, trying to get it down around 60 or so. After tomorrow, forecast is for nice cool ciderin' temps.
 
I also was a recipient of the juice run CVilleKevin mentioned. Wishing now I had filled more carboys like he did. :)
Started a 5 gallon batch, sulfited at normal rate. Turbinado/corn sugar mix added up to 1.055 OG. Pitched with Brupaks. In fermentation chamber at 64F.
Started a 2.5 gallon batch of cyser unsulfited. Wild rose raw honey added up to 1.068 OG. Piched Wyeast Cider yeast. Fermenting at room temp, hanging about 69F right now.
 
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