Can you Brew It recipe for Stone Arrogant Bastard

stonebrewer - which is your closest recipe thus far?

Hard to say but I think the Chinook, Special B, British Crystal 135/165L, and WLP007 was closest. It was not as hoppy as it needed to be, but the malt was spot on and it had that residual sweetness I detect in AB. I actually did a split batch with this one, using WLP007 and WLP002. I had a friend do a taste test and he thought the 007 was closer, but it was not as hoppy (but close!) and the beer was flatter ( I think I targeted 2.2 volumes when I should have added enough sugar for 2.7 or higher; I usually keg so my bottling needs some work).

Just ordered C150 from Austin so I will do the next one with Chinook, WLP007, and C150 ( I also throw in some carapils...8oz..this has a rock solid head and beautiful lace). Will let you know how it comes out. The one I am drinking now had about 25% more Chinook and I think it is still a little shy on the hop side. Probably will bump this to 1/2 lb or a little more...all in the boil and whirlpool. I do not dry hop this at all.

Cheers!

I'm planning on brewing this in the next few weeks. Just wondering how those who've aimed for 1.018 FG thought theirs turned out. I'm splitting this batch and trying both 002 and 007. I may use caramel 135-160 instead. Haven't yet decided. I think I may also try doing a long 60-90 minute steep at around 200 degrees after the boil (which I have read stone does for most brews). Any advise from those who've tried cloning this before is very much appreciated as this is my first attempt.



Arrogant Bastard

Style: Unassigned OG: 1.073
Type: FG: 1.018
Rating: 0.0 ABV: 7.20 %
Calories: 238 IBU's: 96.91
Efficiency: 70 % Boil Size: 14.00 Gal
Color: 21.8 SRM Batch Size: 11.00 Gal
Preboil OG: 1.060 Boil Time: 90 min

Grains & Adjuncts
Amount Percentage Name Time Gravity
29.70 lbs 90.00 % Briess 2-Row Brewers Malt 60 mins 1.037
3.30 lbs 10.00 % Special B Malt 60 mins 1.030

Hops
Amount IBU's Name Time AA %
2.00 ozs 39.97 Chinook 90 mins 13.00
2.00 ozs 34.30 Chinook 45 mins 13.00
2.00 ozs 22.64 Chinook 20 mins 13.00
2.00 ozs 0.00 Chinook 0 mins 13.00

Yeasts
Split batch half with 002 and half with 007

Mash at 154

Now I'm not sure how to approach this. I left this sample of AB sit out overnight and it looks like its around 1.013? Which is 5 points different from the sample FG posted earlier on in this thread.

Now I'm not sure how to approach this. I left this sample of AB sit out overnight and it looks like its around 1.013? Which is 5 points different from the sample FG posted earlier on in this thread.

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It will be fine, just a little more dry. Which yeast was this one from? The 002 will likely come out higher and the 007 will likely come out lower in my experiences...

stonebrewer said:

It will be fine, just a little more dry. Which yeast was this one from? The 002 will likely come out higher and the 007 will likely come out lower in my experiences...

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Sorry for the confusion. That sample was from a bottle of Stone's arrogant bastard. I haven't decided on my recipe yet

Ahhh! I don't think I would be too concerned with 5 points, but I would probably try to hit that as your FG anyway. Since we don't know what the SG was for AB, this is a bit of a guessing game. Good data point though! Cheers!

Well I saved my hydro sample of the commercial AB and now that I'm home from work it is at 1.018, matching what someone else posted earlier in this thread. It must have still had some co2 left in it this morning even though it had sat out for 10 or so hours overnight. So I might shoot for a higher og and higher mash temp when I brew this.

stonebrewer said:

Hard to say but I think the Chinook, Special B, British Crystal 135/165L, and WLP007 was closest. It was not as hoppy as it needed to be, but the malt was spot on and it had that residual sweetness I detect in AB. I actually did a split batch with this one, using WLP007 and WLP002. I had a friend do a taste test and he thought the 007 was closer, but it was not as hoppy (but close!) and the beer was flatter ( I think I targeted 2.2 volumes when I should have added enough sugar for 2.7 or higher; I usually keg so my bottling needs some work).

Just ordered C150 from Austin so I will do the next one with Chinook, WLP007, and C150 ( I also throw in some carapils...8oz..this has a rock solid head and beautiful lace). Will let you know how it comes out. The one I am drinking now had about 25% more Chinook and I think it is still a little shy on the hop side. Probably will bump this to 1/2 lb or a little more...all in the boil and whirlpool. I do not dry hop this at all.

Cheers!

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Any updates?

I do not think this recipe is Special B alone. It may be close, but there's a missing Crystal flavor in the commercial sample.

Update? Not much. I did bottle the gallon I set aside and fermented with WLP002, vice WLP007. So they need another 3ish weeks to carb up. The other 10 gallons are in kegs conditioning. According to my normal schedule, they should be ready to carb up around the end of April. It definitely had a different aroma so once it is ready I will snag a few bottles at the bottle shop, grab a fellow homebrewer or two, and do a blind taste test. Might try the ol' triangle test, just for grins. Should be interesting. I will report back once I get around to doing this. I have a heavy travel schedule, so I need to fit this in to that...

Cheers!

stonebrewer - while I have done only a few batches of AB, my palette tells me the commercial product contains a crystal malt in combination with, or completely replacing, Special B.

There's an underlying flavor I do not get from my brews with 10% Special B. The same taste I get with Old Guardian which does have Crystal and zero Special B.

For my next batch, I may do C-120 or C-150.

Can you tell me how 120 differs from 150? Is it noticeable difference?

What is your recipe from post 562 dated 02-25-2013, 03:15 AM?

The recipe from this last batch (brewed on 3/9/13) was 24 lbs of pale, 1.5 lbs of both special B and C150. I toss in 4 oz of carapils. I mashed pretty high, between 154-156F. There is a half pound of chinook in this (I think, gotta go find my notes), where I did FWH and hop bursting as well as a 90 minute addition for bittering. I do 60-75 minute mashes, single infusion, recirculating over reheat. I always boil Stone clone brews for 90 minutes, and I usually add some gypsum to my water. Irish moss to clarify, and yeast energizer in the last 15 minutes of the boil. I do 2 liter starters and use 1 minute of O2 before I pitch. Contemplating doing O2 12 hours after I pitch instead, but in any case I get visible signs of fermentation at about the 3 hour mark. I have played with just special B and just crystal. I have used British C135-165 which people have told me was "spot on" for the malt. At this point, I am just tweaking the crystal to see what differences I can make with them. I will probably brew this for another year before I say enough and settle on the recipe I like the most. None of them have disappointed me yet. Only regret I have is that I almost always keg. I kinda wish I had bottled each batch and tried more side by side comparisons, but to be fair I don't know that comparing aged versions would really tell me what I am looking for in the clone versus not cloned department. I still think the difference is in the yeast, but am not giving up on a malt difference just yet.

Cheers!

Brewed my attempt 2-23, bottled 3-18.

Partial mash:
10 lbs NW pale ale malt
1 lb c-120
0.25 lb chocolate
Mashed around 153-152F
2 lb DME added at end of boil

3 oz chinook @ 60
2 oz @ 15
3 oz @ 5

Used washed 3rd gen 1056 in a 2L starter.

OG was about 1.070 for 5.25 gal
FG was around 1.018

I have yet to sample mine with the original side by side, although it may not be an exact clone it is delicious and definitely a recipe to hold onto. The slight amount of chocolate introduces a nice complexity to the malt character I really enjoy.

Does anyone see any issues with this recipe below?

This yeast is new to me and my intuition from reading this thread is that 148F may product too dry of a beer.

Any thoughts about shortening the boil to 60 minutes?

6 gallon end-of-boil
SG: 1.068
90 minute boil

91% Rahr US 2-row
9% Simpson’s Extra Dark Crystal Malt 160L

24g chinook 13%AA @ 85m
24g chinook @ 45m
24g chinook @15m
24g chinook @ 0m

Wyeast 1098, 69F

Mash at 152F, 60 min

Stone does 90 minute boils for all their beers from what I read. Not sure why as they use fully modified malts for the majority of them and there is little chance of DME issues, but hey who is going to argue with them? I would throw a handful of carapils in and may a bit of C60. The Chinook at 45 is a little puzzling. I would either push it to 85 or use it for aroma or taste in the 20 min or less range. Can't look at my version(s) of this here now, but when I get a chance I will and let you know if there is anything else I would suggest. The yeast I would use is WLP007. If you want it a little sweeter, go with WLP002 or Wyeast 1968.
In the end, it is your beer so go with your instincts and definitely post back with results!
Cheers!!

stonebrewer said:

Stone does 90 minute boils for all their beers from what I read. Not sure why as they use fully modified malts for the majority of them and there is little chance of DME issues, but hey who is going to argue with them? I would throw a handful of carapils in and may a bit of C60. The Chinook at 45 is a little puzzling. I would either push it to 85 or use it for aroma or taste in the 20 min or less range. Can't look at my version(s) of this here now, but when I get a chance I will and let you know if there is anything else I would suggest. The yeast I would use is WLP007. If you want it a little sweeter, go with WLP002 or Wyeast 1968.
In the end, it is your beer so go with your instincts and definitely post back with results!
Cheers!!

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It it meant to be an attempt at a clone, 90 minute boil it is.

Thank you for the malt comments. I was excited about the similicty of the grainbill and thought the biggest debate was between Special B & an extra dark crystal malt. The Simpon's product is familiar to me for ESB's, but not in this quantity. Your comments have thrown other factors into this now.

The hop schedule is from the CYBI version. I've never used an addition in between 30 min & 60 min before. I didn't pick-up from the threads that it was too far off, maybe not bitter enough. It's about 68 IBU Tinseth and 100 IBU Rager. The predictions seem to fall apart so I'd rather start with some brewed hop schedule.

WLP007/Wyeast 1098 appears to be the same. I can get WLP007.

WLP007 is similar to 1098, but if you look on most of the charts out there, they say there is no exact equivalent to WLP007. It is really my go to yeast and I have had HBS try to sell me 1098 amongst other things because they don't like to carry White Labs.

My attempts using CYBI were close, just a bit off so I started tinkering. I think that it is bit off in bitterness so I moved more into the 90 minute addition. I also have tried both 002 and 007. I actually like the 002 a lot, though it is a bit sweeter. Still a fine beer.

I think most people are thinking the malt bill is where the most work is to get this cloned. I think a mix of C1xx and SB have gotten me the closest. I have played with a little C60 and it seems to help dial it in. Carapils is not a big deal as I don't get a lot of head with this beer with or without it, unless I overcarb it which is a waste of CO2.

I also toss in a spoon of gypsum, yeast energizer, and fine with irish moss.

Good luck!

stonebrewer said:

WLP007 is similar to 1098, but if you look on most of the charts out there, they say there is no exact equivalent to WLP007. It is really my go to yeast and I have had HBS try to sell me 1098 amongst other things because they don't like to carry White Labs.

My attempts using CYBI were close, just a bit off so I started tinkering. I think that it is bit off in bitterness so I moved more into the 90 minute addition. I also have tried both 002 and 007. I actually like the 002 a lot, though it is a bit sweeter. Still a fine beer.

I think most people are thinking the malt bill is where the most work is to get this cloned. I think a mix of C1xx and SB have gotten me the closest. I have played with a little C60 and it seems to help dial it in. Carapils is not a big deal as I don't get a lot of head with this beer with or without it, unless I overcarb it which is a waste of CO2.

I also toss in a spoon of gypsum, yeast energizer, and fine with irish moss.

Good luck!

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Thanks again for the feedback. I'll brew the following and post back. The CYBI beers have been interesting to try and buy the commercial versions for comparison.

6 gallon end-of-boil
SG: 1.068
90 minute boil

91% Rahr US 2-row
4.5% Castle Special B
4.5% Simpson’s Extra Dark Crystal Malt

24g chinook 13%AA @ 85m
24g chinook @ 45m
24g chinook @15m
24g chinook @ 0m

WLP007 (with starter), 69F

mash at 152F, 60 min
yeast nutrient, whirlfloc
cold crash and gelatin
RO water, CaCl2 & CaSO4 to 64ppm Ca, 42 ppm Cl2, 98 ppm SO4 for all water used in brewing.
Expected mash pH = 5.45 (measured at room temperature)
Bottle condition to 2.4 vol CO2

Stonebrewer, what do you feel was your closest hopping schedule to the real thing in your attempts? I am going to brew this finally this weekend an haven't settled on my hop schedule. I was thinking of doing similar to what the guy in the last post had based off of cybi and shooting for around 100 ibu's. just wondering what your thoughts were. Thanks

CraigT: Excellent question! I think the CYBI is close, not quite a bitter as the real thing and maybe less hoppy aroma. I have tweaked the hop portion of the recipe several times. My current 10 gallon batch has me splitting 3 oz between FWH and 90 minute boil. My thinking is I want a lot more bitterness because the CYBI does not seem as bitter as the real deal. Not sure that FWH was wise, but I couldn't help but tinker with the recipe. I then hop burst starting at 20 with 1 oz, and then 15, 10, 5, flameout with 0.5 oz each. This had a better hop bite that the real AB has when it is fresh at the brewery. It also has better aroma than the CYBI recipe IMHO. I have only had one bottle of it so far, but I think this is very, very close hop wise. I want to do a triangle test with the real thing and at least one other person to get an impartial indication of how close it is. The bottle was a little green still. I just checked my beersmith calendar and it says that the beer was ready Monday (I was out of town until late last night), so I think I will do a keg juggle and start carbing it up. I ended up with around 11 gallons so I have two kegs and about 10 bottles. Should bring weeks of enjoyment!! So my advice would be move more hops to 90 to increase your IBU and the rest use for taste/aroma. Once I get this carb'd up I will post my tasting notes...

Cheers!

stonebrewer said:

CraigT: Excellent question! I think the CYBI is close, not quite a bitter as the real thing and maybe less hoppy aroma. I have tweaked the hop portion of the recipe several times. My current 10 gallon batch has me splitting 3 oz between FWH and 90 minute boil. My thinking is I want a lot more bitterness because the CYBI does not seem as bitter as the real deal. Not sure that FWH was wise, but I couldn't help but tinker with the recipe. I then hop burst starting at 20 with 1 oz, and then 15, 10, 5, flameout with 0.5 oz each. This had a better hop bite that the real AB has when it is fresh at the brewery. It also has better aroma than the CYBI recipe IMHO. I have only had one bottle of it so far, but I think this is very, very close hop wise. I want to do a triangle test with the real thing and at least one other person to get an impartial indication of how close it is. The bottle was a little green still. I just checked my beersmith calendar and it says that the beer was ready Monday (I was out of town until late last night), so I think I will do a keg juggle and start carbing it up. I ended up with around 11 gallons so I have two kegs and about 10 bottles. Should bring weeks of enjoyment!! So my advice would be move more hops to 90 to increase your IBU and the rest use for taste/aroma. Once I get this carb'd up I will post my tasting notes...

Cheers!

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i very much appreciate your input. thank you. im doing an 11 gallon batch of this and cant wait

Call me crazy, but for the longest time I couldn't figure out if Stone had some quality control issue, batch to batch...Some days AB was the best beer ever and other it was terrible. I haven't pinned down an exact date but this beer changes considerably over time. I wonder if that's what makes this beer so elusive to brew....

Or I'm crazy...

stonebrewer - is that batch 10% Special B or a Crystal malt?

As we've been discussing, I don't get the same flavor with the 10% Special B as I do out of the commercial brew. I often wonder, but haven't tried, Crystal 120 or 150.

The current experiment is using C150 and Special B in equal portions. I don't think it is as close, from sample size one beer, but will let you know once the keg is rocking this weekend. Looks like it was 5.3% of each and dash of C40 I needed to get rid of as it was almost a year old.

stonebrewer said:

The current experiment is using C150 and Special B in equal portions. I don't think it is as close, from sample size one beer, but will let you know once the keg is rocking this weekend. Looks like it was 5.3% of each and dash of C40 I needed to get rid of as it was almost a year old.

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So there really has been no consensus as to the specialty malt addition being spot on yet.
When you said "as close" do you mean that you thought the 150 alone was closer? Seems unlikely a dash of 40 would do anything.

I'm brewing this next month, and I think I'm going to use 150 / special roast / special B combo.
Need to take a good week to build my starter with only 1 vial of 007 for 11 gal..

Thanks

TD

TD: One green beer isn't much of a sample size, so I will let you know once I have the keg carb'd and a couple of AB's to do a side by side...10% SB plus 3.5% C40 was as close as I have come. The green beer was a little rough tasting on the malt side...not sure if that was the 150 or the lack of aging. Won't be sure until I have a few more samples this weekend.

stonebrewer said:

TD: One green beer isn't much of a sample size, so I will let you know once I have the keg carb'd and a couple of AB's to do a side by side...10% SB plus 3.5% C40 was as close as I have come. The green beer was a little rough tasting on the malt side...not sure if that was the 150 or the lack of aging. Won't be sure until I have a few more samples this weekend.

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Ok. I'm planning my brew day week of May 20th.

By the way, an interesting article in the current Zymurgy. Talks about doing nano mashes of 100 grams of malt plus 400 grams water in mason pint jars. Then tasting the (unfermented) wort to give an idea of what flavors each contributes. He lists tasting notes, and then blends some samples together, of most all of the crystal malts, and then goes to do some European malts and roasted grains. This would seem to be a possible key to unlocking the AB malt secrets.

Personally, I prefer close emulations rather than pursing a pure clone. Also, I find that for AB, I probably can't handle it, and won't like it anyway, and get such a hop smack down that the malt subtleties are lost on my unworthy palate...

TD

In the same vein, there is a similar test with hops. Take a really light, low taste beer like bud lightyear. Get a 12 pack. Open each bottle and put 3-4 pellets of different hops in each. Cap and store in a closet for a week or so. Next put them into a fridge and wait until the hops settle out. open, taste, mix and match to find combos you like. Brew with them. Not a bad idea!

Apendecto said:

Call me crazy, but for the longest time I couldn't figure out if Stone had some quality control issue, batch to batch...Some days AB was the best beer ever and other it was terrible. I haven't pinned down an exact date but this beer changes considerably over time. I wonder if that's what makes this beer so elusive to brew....

Or I'm crazy...

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You have a good point and it has been made by others as well. The beer you get from just about any brewer will change as it ages. Hop aroma fades, bitterness recedes, etc. I compare this beer to when I have had it at Stone and even there I have noticed differences! I had 3 glasses at the bar and then got a growler to go. The growlers are poured from a different tank and there was a very noticeable difference in the beer when I started drinking it a few hours later. So the moral of the story is get close and enjoy. If you like to tinker, then play with the recipe and see what moving hops around or changing malts will do. I found that of my attempts the one that was least like AB was actually preferred by the 4-5 people that tried it. I used WLP002 on that one and it was maltier and sweeter. For some reason, I really like the harsh bite from Chinook combined with that delicious, deep malt flavor. They counter balance each other and I think this is what makes this beer so special!

Had two last night...a little under carb'd but tasty! Much better than the bottle of green beer from a few weeks ago. I want to get a few opinions on this and do a side by side taste test. Will pick up some AB this weekend and do that ( I only have double bastard in the fridge right now). I think I might just like this attempt the best of any to date!

stonebrewer said:

Had two last night...a little under carb'd but tasty! Much better than the bottle of green beer from a few weeks ago. I want to get a few opinions on this and do a side by side taste test. Will pick up some AB this weekend and do that ( I only have double bastard in the fridge right now). I think I might just like this attempt the best of any to date!

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Awesome cant wait to hear your results to the side by side. I am brewing my attempt at this right now. Overshot my starting gravity though. I was shooting for 70% efficiency since this is sorta high gravity and an 11 gallon batch but my preboil came in around 1.070 with 14 gallons. I was planning on a post boil gravity of 1.073. I'm sure it should still turn out great.

I have been hitting just under 80% efficiency and right under 1.070 post boil gravity with this (start around 1.056-8). Picked up a bomber of AB on the way home. Will post some notes tonight. Best of luck with your brew day!! Wish I could brew on Fridays!!

Interesting, I just listened to the BN session "The Session 09-19-11 Jeff Bagby" where Jeff, who worked at Stone AND brewed A.B., commented that A.B. does not include Special B and it was a dose of highly kilned crystal malt. When pressed by Tasty (or someone else), Jeff mentioned C150.

So started the side by side comparison tonight. Hop aroma is close, will probably be closer/the same once mine gets carbonated. Color is off a bit (will post pix later). The real thing is lighter, more reddish than brownish whereas mine is more brownish than reddish. AB is also clearer. Bitterness is still not quite there, mine is a bit sweeter. Mine is a little chewier. I think I want to change the mash temp from 154-156 to maybe 148-150. Not sure why I started mashing this so high as I was originally mashing it lower. The real deal bitterness is sticking to me a lot longer than the one I brewed. Mine is equally as bitter at first, but the malt sweeps it away if you know what I mean. The real deal bitterness stays and stays and stays on the tongue.

So where do I go from here? I think I am dumping Special B and going back to C135-165 british crystal or C150. I may tinker with the amount as mine is too dark. I think I am lowering the mash temp to 150ish. I think the hops are much more in tune, but I think I am doing away with the FWH and moving it to 90 minutes instead as the beer I brewed just doesn't have long lasting bitterness and I think it is the FWHing smoothing it out. I will keep the hop bursting and add maybe another ounce at 5 or flameout as the real deal aroma is a bit higher than mine. I may consider dry hopping, but I keep reading that Stone does not dry hop. I made 10 gallons of a really good beer. It is not a clone of AB. It is still tasty and I will drink and share with friends. The search goes on!

Based on Jeff's comments about no Special B and C150, I'd go that route. I know Tasty over at the Brewing Network did C150 and said it wasn't close but I have to put some stock into what Jeff said.

So I never did a side by side with the C135-165 british crystal, but a brewer friend of mine did and he thought the malt was spot on. If Tasty didn't like the C150 (soh! I have about 30 pounds of it) then I think I will try the C135 again and do my own taste test. Unfortunately that will have to wait a few months as my pipeline is pretty full right now.

In mine I brewed yesterday I used 5% sb and 5% crystal 135-165. And 11.4 aa chinook 4 oz at 90 and an ounce each at 20, 15, 10, 5 and 0 for about 105 ibu. I used half 007 and half 002. I will let you all know in about a month how it turns out.

CraigT said:

In mine I brewed yesterday I used 5% sb and 5% crystal 135-165. And 11.4 aa chinook 4 oz at 90 and an ounce each at 20, 15, 10, 5 and 0 for about 105 ibu. I used half 007 and half 002. I will let you all know in about a month how it turns out.

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I think you are really going to enjoy that one! Very similar to what I have done in the past. Definitely let me know what you think of the 007 vs 002. I am leaning toward 002 more and more, though I don't think it makes the beer closer to AB...it just tastes really good! I have a glass of my latest attempt sitting beside me now...yummy!

Cheers!

stonebrewer said:

So I never did a side by side with the C135-165 british crystal, but a brewer friend of mine did and he thought the malt was spot on. If Tasty didn't like the C150 (soh! I have about 30 pounds of it) then I think I will try the C135 again and do my own taste test. Unfortunately that will have to wait a few months as my pipeline is pretty full right now.

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Aside from the FWH, what did your latest hop schedule look like again?
And that 135-165 British Crystal, is that from morebeer? I have some of their lighter Crystal and is also rated as a range vs specific.

My terrible sinuses unfortunately keep me from being s connoisseur.. I have a hard time picking out such subtle nuances, and as I posted before, my taste buds are overwhelmed by hops and any subtle malt flavor is buried.

I only have a few pounds of C-150. I really wonder about "tasty" thinking the C-150 was off. Wonder if couldve been some other factor or flaw or like has also been said, variation from batch to batch, or wrong mash temp??

Anyway, I hope to be worthy enough to enjoy my own batch once I brew it. I think I might call it "Unworthy Ale"

TD

CraigT said:

In mine I brewed yesterday I used 5% sb and 5% crystal 135-165. And 11.4 aa chinook 4 oz at 90 and an ounce each at 20, 15, 10, 5 and 0 for about 105 ibu. I used half 007 and half 002. I will let you all know in about a month how it turns out.

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That is kinda what I was thinking about doing (except I might use C-150 instead of the british crystal), plus adding a lot of late post boil hop stand hops after cooled below 140 degrees, and letting it rest for 30 minutes, then running off through the HopRocket filled with more Hops.

TD