How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions?

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I'm committed now!

Water heating up in the HLT:

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16 oz of hops blended up (before I split it into 6 and 10 oz):

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With a pen for scale:

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That's a lot of hops for 12 gallons of APA!

Kal
 
kal said:
I'm committed now! That's a lot of hops for 12 gallons of APA!
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I commend your efforts. But geez, that is a lot of hops. I thought this method was a way to s t r e t c h the amount of hops you already use, i.e., get more bang for the same buck? I would think it a no-brainer that you'll get more hop flavor and aroma by using more hops. In such a program though, where's the point of diminishing returns? Maybe I'm too much of a cheapskate! :mug:
 
14thstreet said:
I commend your efforts. But geez, that is a lot of hops. I thought this method was a way to s t r e t c h the amount of hops you already use, i.e., get more bang for the same buck?
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Yes - good point. That was probably the original intent and the point of the analysis that was done a few years back during the hop shortage. Some of us are taking it to a different place I suppose.

Instead of derailing this thread with more pictures of my brew today I started a new one here:

Step by step of my brewday: Doing a massive hop stand

Kal
 
I would like to brew a Rogue Dead Guy clone tomorrow, as per the interview with the Masterbrewer, John Maier on CYBI, he does a whirlpool hop addition of Stering. Can we say that this is a hop stand? At what temperature should I add my Stering and how long should I let it steep. Should I cover the kettle with a lid? I will not be whirlpooling.

This pdf file I found on this thread, page 16, "RDRM-BBB-ATRM1-Advanced Topics" suggests a long stand of 80 minutes;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/ho...out-additions-213803/index16.html#post5005613

Is anybody going out to 80 minutes?

Thanks..., in advance.
 
1MadScientist said:
I would like to brew a Rogue Dead Guy clone tomorrow, as per the interview with the Masterbrewer, John Maier on CYBI, he does a whirlpool hop addition of Stering. Can we say that this is a hop stand? At what temperature should I add my Stering and how long should I let it steep. Should I cover the kettle with a lid? I will not be whirlpooling.

This pdf file I found on this thread, page 16, "RDRM-BBB-ATRM1-Advanced Topics" suggests a long stand of 80 minutes;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/ho...out-additions-213803/index16.html#post5005613

Is anybody going out to 80 minutes?

Thanks..., in advance.
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In my opinion, you should cool to 180F, toss in your hops, let it stand 30-45 minutes, then cool and drain the kettle. If you can stay at 180F for the hop stand, even better, but it will retain a lot of heat on its own. You can cover if you want, I never do and I've never had a problem but it won't hurt as hopefully a long, rolling boil and cooling to 180F will decrease DMS production.
 
1MadScientist said:
Is anybody going out to 80 minutes?
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I did yesterday in my brew. Can't say how much more it does than the 50 they quoted in the article because I haven't tried that. In fact this is my first hop stand. Temperature dropped fairly quickly so I set my kettle to 170F to hold it there and not go below. It hit the 170F point only a little more than 30 mins into the stand.

Kal
 
Maybe a question for a new thread but does/has anyone let their steeping hops go into the fermenter? Was thinking about this the other day. I know I may get some standard response such as "the CO2 will scrub the flavors", etc. but just wondering if anyone's actually tried it. Just wondering and thinking about how I can get all I can out of those steeping hops flavor and aroma.

P.S. I am also aware that this could create logistical problems with racking later but I think there are ways to deal with that - not trying to create a discussion on how to rack when there are hops in the fermenter.
 
So FWIW I've been hopping my IPA's like this for about the last 6 months:

1oz bittering
.5oz - 5 min
1oz - flameout, chill to 170
2oz - let stand for 30 mins @ 170, then chill and ferment as normal
3oz - dry hop in the keg

I guess I should say I "start" the hop stand at 170 and allow it to slowly cool over the next 30 minutes on my deck.

I'm consistently VERY happy with the results. Couldn't tell you a commercial IPA I'd prefer over my own these days. This has been a good thread for me :).
 
Great thread!

I had brewed a few beers a couple weeks ago. I had some chilling issues and inadvertently did hop stands for up to 60 min on several brews including an APA and IIPA. I also used a Blichmann HopRocket for these two.

I've only used the HopRocket on one other brew. That was also a APA and I made 10 gallons. I kegged half and left the other half on the secondary waiting for keg one to kick, then got too lazy/busy to keg it. Sat shielded from light and with water in airlock for a good 8 month at room temp 68-75 F. Finally kegged it. Both this and the first half were by far the most hop aroma and flavor beers I've ever made. I did no hop stand on those other than chill time about 10-15 min from immediate post boil temps. Was very impressed with the stability of the aroma over time that the HopRocket contributed.
I am planning to use the HopRocket as a Randalizer as well at some point.

Ill be excited to taste the two inadvertent hop stand plus HopRocket beers. Both are also being dry hopped.

TD
 
NewDecadeBrewery said:
Maybe a question for a new thread but does/has anyone let their steeping hops go into the fermenter? Was thinking about this the other day. I know I may get some standard response such as "the CO2 will scrub the flavors", etc. but just wondering if anyone's actually tried it. Just wondering and thinking about how I can get all I can out of those steeping hops flavor and aroma.

P.S. I am also aware that this could create logistical problems with racking later but I think there are ways to deal with that - not trying to create a discussion on how to rack when there are hops in the fermenter.
Click to expand...
Sure. I do it all the time. I don't think I've used a hop bag since my first few brews. They settle down to the trub during fermentation and any that get into the bottles settle to to the bottom of the bottles during refrigeration.
 
@mtnagel have you tried fermenting with the steeping hops removed? Just wondering if there is a difference or benefit flavor wise if the hops are left in the fermenter or removed. I naturally gravitate toward not fermenting with all those hops in my fermentation vessel as I would imagine most brewers whirlpool or avoid hops/break/trub in the fermenter. But if there is a benefit in flavor or aroma with letting the hops into the FV then I am interested in it. Anyone else have success or input regarding allowing the steeping hops in the fermenter? Do you get more flavor/aroma this way?
 
NewDecadeBrewery said:
@mtnagel have you tried fermenting with the steeping hops removed? Just wondering if there is a difference or benefit flavor wise if the hops are left in the fermenter or removed. I naturally gravitate toward not fermenting with all those hops in my fermentation vessel as I would imagine most brewers whirlpool or avoid hops/break/trub in the fermenter. But if there is a benefit in flavor or aroma with letting the hops into the FV then I am interested in it. Anyone else have success or input regarding allowing the steeping hops in the fermenter? Do you get more flavor/aroma this way?
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I've never noticed a difference in hop aroma when I used to dump entire kettle content into primary fermenter, compared to when I started leaving the hot break, and spent hops in the kettle. So I don't think hop matter in the primary offers any aroma benefit. I think it has been suggested and makes some common sense, that aroma compounds could be scrubbed from the beer by vigorous fermentation and CO2 production. This may be why dry hops are usually added to the secondary or serving keg. What I did notice when I started trying to leave hot break and spent hops in kettle, was a better flavored beer. Less "homebrew"ish, and cleaner finish in the glass. Hard to pinpoint, but I think in part the improvement might come from leaving trub behind, as well as other improved techniques and methods as my experience and skill improved over time that I can put a finger on exactly.

The bottom line though. Is that I don't think it makes sense that, nor have I noticed any, beneficial contribution to hop aroma by leaving hops in primary fermenter.

TD
 
terrapinj said:
tried this technique once with an IPL using normal late additions and then a nice big 30min hopstand once the wort cooled below 160° - really noticed a brighter and longer lasting flavor/aroma

brewing a galaxy APA this weekend and trying no additions during the actual boil

.75oz FWH
1oz flameout - 30min stand
1oz 30min hop stand when wort is around 160°
1.25oz dryhop in keg
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kegged this up this weekend

big flavor and aroma of mango with some pineapple, never used galaxy by itself or conan yeast so it's hard to clearly distinguish where the flavors/aroma are coming from, my guess is mostly hops and some fruity support from the yeast

really nice firm bitterness despite the expected soft bitterness from FWH - BS calculated around 47IBU and the flat sample def tasted in that ballpark

added 1.25oz of galaxy and will pull a carbed sample in the next couple days
 
TheHairyHop said:
I made an IPA this past weekend.

Using the Zombie Dust malt bill, I added .5 oz each of Chinook, Amaraillo, Simcoe, and Citra above 180 for 30 minutes and then the same amounts for 30 more under 180 (I think it was 165). I didn't add any bittering hops. I'm going to dry hop with the same hops, but I might be flexible when I taste it on dry hop. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
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Tasted a sample before dry hopping today. Very juicy, slightly piney and overall very good. I dry hopped with .5 Oz of Chinook, .5 Oz of Simcoe, and an Oz of Citra. We'll see how it goes!
 
TheHairyHop said:
Tasted a sample before dry hopping today. Very juicy, slightly piney and overall very good. I dry hopped with .5 Oz of Chinook, .5 Oz of Simcoe, and an Oz of Citra. We'll see how it goes!
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How was the bitterness without adding boiling hops? Did it seem like enough for an IPA?
 
apologies if it was already covered in the thread, but has anyone figured out how to add hopstand additions above isomerization temps into beersmith? I know the formulas aren't concrete and most suggest it's roughly equivalent to a 20min addition

aroma steep won't add any IBU - i know I can enter it as a 20min boil addition but i'd like to have it reflect the correct addition time
 
In my limited experience in this technique I'd have to say there is some bitterness that goes with large flame out additions and I would guess about the same as a 3-5 minute boil.

I've done some IPA's with a small 60 or FWH addition then large FO addition and they all had plenty of IPA type bitterness just like a 60 15 10 5 boil addition but with a little less harshness and more flavor.

Plan on brewing an all hop stand only APA in the near future to see what happens.
 
wobdee said:
How was the bitterness without adding boiling hops? Did it seem like enough for an IPA?
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Tough to say because I didn't take a very large sample. I would venture to say, no. My hunch is that since I added 0 true bittering hops, the notion that the flavor of hops can accentuate bitterness does not apply.

I'll keep updating this thread on my IPA though. Right now, I'm wondering if 3 Oz of dry hop was enough
 
wobdee said:
In my limited experience in this technique I'd have to say there is some bitterness that goes with large flame out additions and I would guess about the same as a 3-5 minute boil.

I've done some IPA's with a small 60 or FWH addition then large FO addition and they all had plenty of IPA type bitterness just like a 60 15 10 5 boil addition but with a little less harshness and more flavor.

Plan on brewing an all hop stand only APA in the near future to see what happens.
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most of the articles etc i've seen say somewhere around 10-15% utilization

hertic uses this method for one of their beers and adds no hops during the boil and gets something like 65IBU still

my plan is to brew a blonde with around 2oz of Mt Hood at flameout as the sole hop and let it sit for 30-45min before starting the chiller
 
TheHairyHop said:
Tough to say because I didn't take a very large sample. I would venture to say, no. My hunch is that since I added 0 true bittering hops, the notion that the flavor of hops can accentuate bitterness does not apply.

I'll keep updating this thread on my IPA though. Right now, I'm wondering if 3 Oz of dry hop was enough
Click to expand...

I dry hopped with 1 oz Chinook, 1 oz Simcoe and 2 oz Citra. Bottled it today. Tastes great, but not bitter. I don't want to take a numerical guess, but it's below a brown ale. Probably Pilsner level bitterness. I didn't get any fade in the hop flavor via fermentation though. Tasted just as delicious before primary as it did after
 
I'm planning on a 2.5 gal 1.050 Pale Ale with 2 oz of Citra FO hops and 1oz dry hop. But I'm also considering 3oz Citra FO and no dry hops. What do you guys think? I'd like to forgo the dry hops if I could get a similar aroma from a larger FO addition but not sure that would be the case and maybe I'd end up with too much Citra flavor and little aroma?
 
wobdee said:
I'm planning on a 2.5 gal 1.050 Pale Ale with 2 oz of Citra FO hops and 1oz dry hop. But I'm also considering 3oz Citra FO and no dry hops. What do you guys think? I'd like to forgo the dry hops if I could get a similar aroma from a larger FO addition but not sure that would be the case and maybe I'd end up with too much Citra flavor and little aroma?
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I did FO with citra and some others. It provided a good amount of flavor, but not too much aroma. I will say though, I feel as if I got more citra flavor from the FO than the DH, BUT I got more flavor from the simcoe and chinook when dry hopping :drunk:
 
wobdee, there was a study done by Rock Bottom Brewery and they found that you get the best of both worlds when splitting your finishing hops between FO and DH. So in your case, the first option or a variation of, may provide you with more aroma.

However, a couple years ago I brewed with 1.75oz/2.5 gal Amarillo at 15 minutes as the only hop addition and aroma was surprisingly wonderful. Like HairyHop's experience, you have to try it to discover how it works for you - there may be no set rules.
 
14thstreet said:
wobdee, there was a study done by Rock Bottom Brewery and they found that you get the best of both worlds when splitting your finishing hops between FO and DH. So in your case, the first option or a variation of, may provide you with more aroma.

However, a couple years ago I brewed with 1.75oz/2.5 gal Amarillo at 15 minutes as the only hop addition and aroma was surprisingly wonderful. Like HairyHop's experience, you have to try it to discover how it works for you - there may be no set rules.
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Yeah, I think I read that article. I suppose since it will only be a small batch I could try both and see what happens.
 
My hunch is that the different oils and acids that relate to unique flavors in each hop will optimally make their way into the beer via different methods. I.e. The fruit flavor of citra and Amarillo may soak in better under hot conditions rather than cold. Note that this is just an example pulled out of my arse, but you might get my drift
 
Randy_Bugger said:
BeerSmith has a good article about late hopping and the boiling point temperatures of the various hop oils. Myrcene is the lowest at 147*F.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/
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Nice article, and thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Tried this method last night for the first time with a Mosaic IPA. By a happy accident I cooled my wort a little more than expected post-boil and ended up steeping my "0 minute" additions at 145° for 80 minutes. I had plenty of bitterness from my FWH, so I was only looking for flavor and aroma in the hop stand, so it all worked out! The gravity sample was miles beyond any hop flavor I've tasted so far in one of my beers. Can't wait to taste this. Here's my hop schedule in case anyone is interested.

Hops
Amount IBU's Name Time AA %
2.00 ozs 48.73 Nugget First Wort 12.30
1.00 ozs 17.99 Simcoe 30 mins 13.00
2.00 ozs 0.00 Mosaic 0 mins 11.60
1.00 ozs 0.00 Simcoe 0 mins 13.00
1.00 ozs 0.00 Nugget 0 mins 12.30
2.00 ozs (dry) Mosaic 4 days 11.60
1.00 ozs (dry) Simcoe 4 days 13.00
 
Definitely great thread!

We brewed a DIPA yesterday as part of our "Extending the Seasons" class and used 1oz of Cascade (pellet) @ 165F and then went through 2oz of leaf (hop rocket)

As far as getting the best hop aroma around flameout, what temp does everyone use for the hop rocket/back?
 
DeutschMark said:
Definitely great thread!

We brewed a DIPA yesterday as part of our "Extending the Seasons" class and used 1oz of Cascade (pellet) @ 165F and then went through 2oz of leaf (hop rocket)

As far as getting the best hop aroma around flameout, what temp does everyone use for the hop rocket/back?
Click to expand...

I've never used one. Do you have good results? I figure that cold hopping before fermentation results in a loss of flavor due to carbonation. That's the urban legend anyways. I'm thinking of doing a controlled experiment to prove/disprove
 
TheHairyHop said:
I've never used one. Do you have good results? I figure that cold hopping before fermentation results in a loss of flavor due to carbonation. That's the urban legend anyways. I'm thinking of doing a controlled experiment to prove/disprove
Click to expand...

Definitely keep us posted. I've gotten great flavor and aroma from late additions without dry hopping but it seems unpredictable.
 
The lower the temperature, the longer it takes to extract the aromatic oils. So a hop stand at 140* for 20 minutes might be similar to a hop stand at 110* for 45 minutes or a hop stand at 160* for 10 minutes.

He didn't recommend a time period for a hop stand at 110*. Damn it!
 

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