Concentrating fresh fruit juice

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JasontheBeaver

JasontheBeaver

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Searched all over for info on this and couldn't find anything except in the eisbock threads.
I'm wanting to concentrate fresh fruit juices.
So, what is the best way to remove water from juice?
1) simmer/boil it? I don't think so. Would probably change the characteristic and flavor adversly.
2) freeze it in plastic milk jugs, then turn upside down over a funnel and let thaw and drain into collection container, monitoring SG until you get to where you want? Sounds good but would like to hear from someone who has tried this method.
3) put juice in bucket and place it in the freezer, then periodically skim ice crystals from surface (or strain ice crystals)? Meh, not sure about this one either.
4) put in corny keg and freeze until 'slushy' then force liquid out to another keg via jumper tube?

My wines and ciders just don't have enough of the original fruit flavor. Kinda like how grape wines taste very little like grapes. Well I want my blackberry wine to taste like blackberries dammit! And my apple ciders to really taste like apples!

Any ideas from the experienced?
 
Simmer to about half the amount and that removes the water. I do it all the time.

For apple use frozen cans of apple juice.
 
Curiosity asks what have you been doing? I like to try to use 100% fruit juice, with something like blackberries that gives a lot of acid that needs backsweetening but we know that from the start. You can also add more fruit after the gravity has dropped to where you are almost ready to transfer to your secondary, throw in some fruit and let it steep for a few days. For your cider go to the cider section and ask about apple jack, that seems to be what you are looking for?

Another flavor booster for berries is to add a few pounds of frozen strawberries just before transferring for a couple of days, works with all berries as far as I can tell, to give it more nose and enhance the flavor.

WVMJ

JasontheBeaver said:
Searched all over for info on this and couldn't find anything except in the eisbock threads.
I'm wanting to concentrate fresh fruit juices.
So, what is the best way to remove water from juice?
1) simmer/boil it? I don't think so. Would probably change the characteristic and flavor adversly.
2) freeze it in plastic milk jugs, then turn upside down over a funnel and let thaw and drain into collection container, monitoring SG until you get to where you want? Sounds good but would like to hear from someone who has tried this method.
3) put juice in bucket and place it in the freezer, then periodically skim ice crystals from surface (or strain ice crystals)? Meh, not sure about this one either.
4) put in corny keg and freeze until 'slushy' then force liquid out to another keg via jumper tube?

My wines and ciders just don't have enough of the original fruit flavor. Kinda like how grape wines taste very little like grapes. Well I want my blackberry wine to taste like blackberries dammit! And my apple ciders to really taste like apples!

Any ideas from the experienced?
Click to expand...
 
What keeps the yeast from just munching away on the sugar you just added, and the water in the fruit from diluting it even more?
Back sweetening just adds sugar, not flavor.

I'm envisioning centrating the initial juice so I'm closer to my target OG and having to add less sugar.
 
JasontheBeaver said:
So cooking the juice doesn't alter the flavor?
Click to expand...

Yes, it does, significantly.

Think of the difference between a fresh crisp apple, and the apple flavor in jelly or apple pie. Or a fresh blueberry vs a canned blueberry. It's a huge difference.

I only used a heated juice once that had ok results. A friend got one of those steam extractor juicers, and so he gave me 3 gallons of chokecherry juice. I made mine the traditional way but made both batches. The one made from chokecherries was so much better, without a "cooked fruit" taste. His was "ok". I didn't taste cooked too much, but rather like jam with a fruit forward taste. It wasn't as bad as cooked apples would be. It was also bland and without depth.
 
JasontheBeaver said:
What keeps the yeast from just munching away on the sugar you just added, and the water in the fruit from diluting it even more?
Back sweetening just adds sugar, not flavor.

I'm envisioning centrating the initial juice so I'm closer to my target OG and having to add less sugar.
Click to expand...

I gotcha. Here's the thing, though- some fruits are so blasted acidic that you don't want to use 100% juice of them! Like, for example, raspberries. They make a great wine. But if you used 100% raspberry juice, even with added sugar to hit a reasonable OG, it would be so acidic that you wouldn't be able to drink it.

Only wine grapes have enough natural sugar to make wine without boosting the brix with sugar. They still need some acid adjustments, but not as much as wild fruits like raspberries, blackberries, apples, etc.

If you want more fruit flavor, you could certainly use more fruit. (Not juice- the actual fruit). But keep in mind the acid that might overtake all the other flavors.
 
JasontheBeaver said:
Searched all over for info on this and couldn't find anything except in the eisbock threads.
I'm wanting to concentrate fresh fruit juices.
So, what is the best way to remove water from juice?
1) simmer/boil it? I don't think so. Would probably change the characteristic and flavor adversly.
2) freeze it in plastic milk jugs, then turn upside down over a funnel and let thaw and drain into collection container, monitoring SG until you get to where you want? Sounds good but would like to hear from someone who has tried this method.
3) put juice in bucket and place it in the freezer, then periodically skim ice crystals from surface (or strain ice crystals)? Meh, not sure about this one either.
4) put in corny keg and freeze until 'slushy' then force liquid out to another keg via jumper tube?

My wines and ciders just don't have enough of the original fruit flavor. Kinda like how grape wines taste very little like grapes. Well I want my blackberry wine to taste like blackberries dammit! And my apple ciders to really taste like apples!

Any ideas from the experienced?
Click to expand...

Here is what I do for fruit wines (ie strawberry, blueberry). Ferment your wine dry and let clear. Stabilize with kmeta and sorbate. You can then use juice or juice concentrate to backsweeten and flavor the wine with fruit flavor.

My blueberry wine turned our great this way, great blueberry flavor!
 
Ditto! I backsweeten only usung frozen 100%fruit juice concentrates. Just one can in a five galleon batch can make a huge difference. Going from bone dry to even a small amount of sweetness really brings out the fruit flavore. If I don't have a juice that matches, I use whatever is close. The original fruit flavor cames back. If you add several cans you do start to change the flavor.
I have been told aging will bring back the fruit flavor. I have yet to try that method!!!
 
Thanks for the feedback guys.
I may have to learn this one for myself the hard way. I'm just not convinced that back sweetening and/or adding juice on the back end is the only/best way to get where I want to go.
I've made a cherry wine from store bought juice that ended up being a complete sugar bomb with very little cherry flavor. If I add more juice on the back end then it will add even more sugar, not the direction I want to go. (The wine's gravity is lower than the juice's.)
From the several batches of apple cider I've made there is virtually no difference between using store bought juice versus fresh pressed juice straight off the farm. Just too much water contained in either juice IMO.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but I picture 3 essential components here, water, sugar, and soluble flavor compounds. It seems that by using natural juice or store bought juice I'm already starting with too much water:flavor ratio. I guess I could start with frozen juice concentrate but I'm wanting to phase out store bought juices in my process. I guess I should thaw some frozen concentrate and take an OG reading and play with it that way at least once. Probably a lot less work than trying to make my own concentrate via the method(s) in my OP.
Yooper's assertion regarding the acid content is valid so I'll need to address that somehow too.
 
JasontheBeaver said:
Thanks for the feedback guys.
I may have to learn this one for myself the hard way. I'm just not convinced that back sweetening and/or adding juice on the back end is the only/best way to get where I want to go.
I've made a cherry wine from store bought juice that ended up being a complete sugar bomb with very little cherry flavor. If I add more juice on the back end then it will add even more sugar, not the direction I want to go. (The wine's gravity is lower than the juice's.)
From the several batches of apple cider I've made there is virtually no difference between using store bought juice versus fresh pressed juice straight off the farm. Just too much water contained in either juice IMO.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but I picture 3 essential components here, water, sugar, and soluble flavor compounds. It seems that by using natural juice or store bought juice I'm already starting with too much water:flavor ratio. I guess I could start with frozen juice concentrate but I'm wanting to phase out store bought juices in my process. I guess I should thaw some frozen concentrate and take an OG reading and play with it that way at least once. Probably a lot less work than trying to make my own concentrate via the method(s) in my OP.
Yooper's assertion regarding the acid content is valid so I'll need to address that somehow too.
Click to expand...

What was the SG of your cherry juice that ended up too sugary? Yeast used? The more info you provide us, the better we can give advice to help you out.

As you pointed out, when you concentrate your juice, the acid goes up too. You can add a base to neutralize some, but there comes a point where that will screw with the flavor too.
 
One can frozen 100% fruit juice concentrate with two cans water gives a sg of 1.100. At least it did the one time I tested it. Type used may vary.
 
novalou said:
What was the SG of your cherry juice that ended up too sugary? Yeast used? The more info you provide us, the better we can give advice to help you out.
As you pointed out, when you concentrate your juice, the acid goes up too. You can add a base to neutralize some, but there comes a point where that will screw with the flavor too.
Click to expand...
5.5 gals juice OG: 1.060
added 8lbs dextrose and 4.5lbs cane sugar to achieve OG:1.126
Wyeast #4028 chateau red yeast
Fermented to 1.016 (14.5% ABV)
I ended up adding water to cut the extreme sweetness and bring the ABV down a little. My wife likes it because it is bordering on a dessert wine but I'm aiming somewhere between this and a dry wine but with more of the base fruit flavor.
Of course I could add less sugar to reduce residual sweetness but I don't think that is going to enhance the flavor.

I really appreciate the input and feedback guys!
 
JasontheBeaver said:
5.5 gals juice OG: 1.060
added 8lbs dextrose and 4.5lbs cane sugar to achieve OG:1.126
Wyeast #4028 chateau red yeast
Fermented to 1.016 (14.5% ABV)
I ended up adding water to cut the extreme sweetness and bring the ABV down a little. My wife likes it because it is bordering on a dessert wine but I'm aiming somewhere between this and a dry wine but with more of the base fruit flavor.
Of course I could add less sugar to reduce residual sweetness but I don't think that is going to enhance the flavor.

I really appreciate the input and feedback guys!
Click to expand...

Well, this might sound sarcastic, but I don't mean it to be at all. But if you want a more fruit forward wine, why not use fruit instead of juice? Using 7# of strawberries per gallon for a strawberry wine would give great fruit flavor, but not a boozy flavor.

I typically make fruit wines no higher than 1.085 or so. A boozy fruit wine isn't very good.
 
JasontheBeaver said:
Thanks Yooper, exactly why I come here to ask questions. Maybe that's exactly what I need to do.
Click to expand...

There are a lot of possibilities, once summer comes! Strawberries, blueberries, blackberries, and even rhubarb make nice wine.

If you want to do something sort of weird, but tasty, you could try a recipe that I have posted for "banana wine". Oh, I know it sounds odd but it's not as weird as it sounds. It's quite good, and it's easy besides! I buy bananas overripe when they are really really cheap and pop them in the freezer. They can be black when I use them as a result- and still a great white (golden) wine.
 
The pros concentrate juice using both heat and vaccuum. With temps below 140° F the vaccuum pulls the moisture from the product and retains more of the freshness and essence of the fruit. My .02 for the thread.
 
When I posted earlier I was really meaning 100% fruit juice from the fruits your process your self by macerating the fruit and squeezing out the seeds. 50 pooounds of strawberries can give a good 4 gallons of juice, you cant get much more flavor than that in your wine. Another route is dried fruit l ike dried elderberries, you can get to much flavor out of them. WVMJ

JasontheBeaver said:
Thanks Yooper, exactly why I come here to ask questions. Maybe that's exactly what I need to do.
Click to expand...
 

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