little bit of help with this pale ale please

here's the recipe i brewed.



great learning experience this beer was. the bitterness was way too much. i've left it in the keg for about 3 weeks now in order to get the sharpness down. i'm thinking it's the FWH. even LHBS said this doesn't come off as 45 IBU.

the flavor is alright. there's something about it that makes me think of a hoppy brown ale rather than a pale ale or IPA. i think it's the crystal 40. too dark for what i was wanting. the idea was to flesh out the fruity flavors of these hops and i think this grainbill has the wrong sweetness to do that. this doesn't really come off sweet. it's on the dry side and i think the crystal additions just push it off of being overly dry/sharp.

here's my proposal:


input is appreciated.

That's a lot of crystal malts. Curious... what was your mash temp?

ChshreCat said:

That's a lot of crystal malts. Curious... what was your mash temp?

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i used the vanilla process. mash @ 153, mash out @ 170. boil for 60 minutes. etc.

ChshreCat said:

That's a lot of crystal malts. Curious... what was your mash temp?

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Agree

1 lbs of crystal/caramalt is PLENTY...

Also that sharp bitterness likely isn't coming from the IBU's. Even 60 IBUs tastes pretty mellow at a FG in the 16-18 ballpark.

Are you sure that it wasnt something else in your process causing the bitter taste?

It shouldn't be First Wort Hopping that makes it too sharp bitterness because First Wort, among other reasons, is used to produce a smoother bitterness.

I am having a hard time reading and understanding the hop schedule on the page. It shows 1 First Wort Hop addition and then two "post boil" hop additions. All three are for 60 minutes. First Wort Hopping is adding hops into the brew kettle during lauter, before the boil. Post Boil is added after the boil is done. It looks like the program probably has different formulae for each type (FWH, Boil and Post Boil) and your settings are off. Adjust these two show the hops that are added during the boil--this doesn't right now show any so your yield would be very low according to the program. If you pitched all of those and boiled them for 60 minutes like one setting said, then you would have (according to Brew Smith) 172 IBUs. If I change the second Amarillo and Citra to being added "post boil" like your other settings say (where the program determines what utilization formula to use) then I come very close to what the program is telling you.

It looks like you told the program that four ounces of hops were being added when the boil was done, but you actually added them during the boil.

Check your settings on the program.

I didn't even notice that. What was your actual hop schedule?

the time measurements for the additions don't mean anything. if i change the FWH to 5 mins nothing happens. same with post boil.

i added the hops to the kettle and then drained the mash tun into it. brought to a roll and let go for the 60 minutes. cut the flame and then poured in the rest of my hops. brought the kettle to the sink and ran the chiller through it. crashed to 70F in 12-15 minutes.

to clarify the software, the times on the hop additions only change your measurements if you have the addition set to boil. if you use FWH it uses a formula based on your boil time. post boil is the same. it's a flame out addition and the time has no bearing on measurements.

That's kind of an odd hop schedule. You didn't add any hops during the boil at all?

ChshreCat said:

That's kind of an odd hop schedule. You didn't add any hops during the boil at all?

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nope. maybe that's what's missing? adding hops at 5min to boost hop flavor?

Most who do First Wort Hopping recommend never doing more than 30% of your hop charge and the rest in a regular schedule.

My APA (1.047 OG) has 0.5 oz of Cascade FWH, 0.5 oz of Summit in boil for 60 minutes, 1 oz of Cascade in boil for 15 minutes and 1 oz of Cascade at flame out. My IBUs calculate at 47 and it tastes awesome. There is no harshness to the bitterness. It also has 1 oz. of Cascade for dry hopping.

I'd dump the Flaked Barley because it will cause bad haze in a light colored beer. I'd also dump the Carapils because the mash temperature will give you plenty of Dextrines for body. I'd also drop the caramel malt except for 1 pound of 20L. Boost the gravity back up by raisiing the Pale Malt to 9.5 lbs. Go ahead and use 1 oz. of Amarillo in FWH and then do another oz of Amarillo at 60 minutes and a third at 15 minutes. Then throw in an oz of Citra at flameout for the Citra aroma. This will give you 44 IBU and 6.3 color. Ferment with a good American clean yeast like US -05 or American Ale II. This will also give you a nice 1.014 FG at 152 mash (though I'd prefer it with a 148 mash) and 5.7 ABV.

You got some good experience from it, but you might want to do some research on hopping for the future.

5 minutes would be more of an aroma addition and wouldn't do too much for flavor. I'd look to rearrange it with a FWH, then a regular addition at the start of boil, another addition at 20-15 for flavor and another in the last few minutes for aroma. Then possibly one at flameout (post boil) if you want. I think you'd find that to be a much more balanced flavor.

cluckk said:

I'd dump the Flaked Barley because it will cause bad haze in a light colored beer.

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I used a half lb of flaked barley in my APA and have no issues with haze in it.

I'm shocked that a beer with 3 pounds of crystal malts (27% in the original!!!!!) isn't cloyingly sweet under the bitterness.

I'm having trouble reading the recipe- where the only hops added to the boil the 1.5 ounces of FWH? If so, that's not where the intense bitterness is coming from. It's just not possible.

Yooper said:

I'm shocked that a beer with 3 pounds of crystal malts (27% in the original!!!!!) isn't cloyingly sweet under the bitterness.

I'm having trouble reading the recipe- where the only hops added to the boil the 1.5 ounces of FWH? If so, that's not where the intense bitterness is coming from. It's just not possible.

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it's actually agreed that it's overly bitter. finishes sweet.

the idea was to make a bittersweet beer. just a bit too polarized.

RonPopeil said:

it's actually agreed that it's overly bitter. finishes sweet.

the idea was to make a bittersweet beer. just a bit too polarized.

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Bittersweet? I don't think we are making a pale ale anymore. I might drop out most the crystal, or at least only use 10L or 20L. 6-8 ounces might be more appropriate. Also, I would remove or seriously reduce the carapils in thiss pale ale.

I just do "standard" hopping, 60 minute, 30, 15, flame out and dry hop if I want. I have a much more balanced beer for my taste.

Also, IMO, today's "pale ale" is an IPA. I don't care what the IBU's come out as, I feel like almost 6 ounces of fresh hops of any variety is a hoppy beer

alright. some revisions. taking this a bit bigger into IPA territory. suggestions on mash in/out temps, etc are appreciated.

woknblues said:

Bittersweet? I don't think we are making a pale ale anymore. I might drop out most the crystal, or at least only use 10L or 20L. 6-8 ounces might be more appropriate. Also, I would remove or seriously reduce the carapils in thiss pale ale.

I just do "standard" hopping, 60 minute, 30, 15, flame out and dry hop if I want. I have a much more balanced beer for my taste.

Also, IMO, today's "pale ale" is an IPA. I don't care what the IBU's come out as, I feel like almost 6 ounces of fresh hops of any variety is a hoppy beer

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troeg's nugget nectar, bells two hearted..

Probably a few more still, however....

Hey Ron,

Looking at the updated recipe, it will definitely take it closer to an imperial IPA than an APA (like you mentioned)
The grain bill is fine, I would still maybe back down the cry 20 to a lb, but what you have will work still.

For a beer of that size, I would definitely try to get it to attenuate way lower than 1.022. That's a pretty high finishing gravity, especially for something bordering on an imperial ipa. Generally, a FG that high is reserved for beers like sweet stouts and such that are meant to have a pretty good amount of body, however, that FG might just be what the software is telling you ( I'm not familiar with hopville.) I would just make sure to make a decent size starter to get the attenuation down a bit more.

Last thing (and this is just because I feel like you can utilize them better) is I hate to see you use something as wonderful as Amarillo as a FWH/Bittering addition. If it's all you have go for it, but you would be better off using a more neutral/high AA hop and save the Amarillo for a flavoring/aroma addition late in the beer or for another batch.

All that being said, if you do it "as is" it will still make beer. And it will probably be something you can drink and enjoy. =P