Another US-05 experiment... temperature fluctuations

lschiavo said:

Nicely done. You're OK my friend. I wouldn't bother telling you so if this thread weren't already cluttered enough though.

BTW, Subbed:rockin::rockin:

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What is SUBBED?

el_caro said:

What is SUBBED?

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A ceremonial chant that asks the forum gods to increase the number of content-free posts, thus making actual knowledge more of a pursuit for future believers.

No, it really means "subscribed."

BTW, you can subscribe in two clicks in the pull-down menu above.

Taste test before going into kegs-

60 degree sample- Definitely the most aromatic. Almost floral in nature. I don't get any peach or apricot yet, but I admit my palate isn't the most sophisticated... Flat sample tasted nice- refreshing, really no bitterness to speak of. nice mouthfeel.

64 degree sample- smelled more of 'beer'. Most balanced of the three in terms of taste. Subtle hop nose, low bitterness. Tasted as close to the 'control' as I can gather.

68 degree sample- See 64 sample, just with a touch more hop bitterness on the finish. Really really subtle floral aroma, really nice.

I'm not into ranking them, they all taste subtly different, but I can totally see how personal taste preferences would favor either one over the others.

All three are different though, not by much, but definitely different.

Hmm so it sounds like you'd def want to adjust fermentation temperatures with this yeast depending on what style of beer you are brewing (although I guess that's obvious, the hard part is figuring out exact replicable effects).

My take away from this last post is I will try fermenting my IPAs at ~68 and more mild beers in the lower 60s

Thanks for all the updates!

Just pitched us-05 into a batch last night. 12 hours later there is a little foam starting to form on the top. Have the temp set at 65. Might go ahead and raise it to 66 for a middle of the road between your 64 and 68. Seems like a pretty standard temp for this yeast anyways.

tonyc318 said:

Just pitched us-05 into a batch last night. 12 hours later there is a little foam starting to form on the top. Have the temp set at 65. Might go ahead and raise it to 66 for a middle of the road between your 64 and 68. Seems like a pretty standard temp for this yeast anyways.

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If your temp is set at 66 isn't your fermentation temp going to be in the 70's? In just curious because I don't understand how ppl use temp controllers. If you set your temp controlled set up to 63 say. How do you still know what the actual fermentation temp is ?? Even then doesn't the temp rise and fall as peak fermentation hits the gradually decreases?

You can use either a thermowell directly into the liquid, or tape/insulate the temperature probe to the side of the fermenter. Either method will get you the temperature of the fermentation itself, as opposed to ambient air. If you set the controller to 63, you will keep the liquid at 63 (plus or minus whatever your swing setting is).

pfgonzo said:

You can use either a thermowell directly into the liquid, or tape/insulate the temperature probe to the side of the fermenter. Either method will get you the temperature of the fermentation itself, as opposed to ambient air. If you set the controller to 63, you will keep the liquid at 63 (plus or minus whatever your swing setting is).

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+1 I tape the probe to the side of the vessel under a folded up old shirt. Does the job very well.

tonyc318 said:

+1 I tape the probe to the side of the vessel under a folded up old shirt. Does the job very well.

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I use bubblewrap, but same thing here.

Golfduke, remind me: Are you using three separate temp controllers to monitor/maintain temperature?

pfgonzo said:

Golfduke, remind me: Are you using three separate temp controllers to monitor/maintain temperature?

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as below...

golfduke said:

The 60 degree batch is in a foamed out basement chamber. My basement stays at 56 degrees in the winter. I have a Lasko personal space heater in the chamber attached to a Johnson controller with the temp probe insulated and taped to the side of the carboy.

The 64 and 68 batch are done inside of a fridge. An STC1000 keeps it at 64, while I use a heat wrap for reptiles on the 68 degree fermentor with a probe inside of a thermowell and another johnson controller controlling that one.

So, essentially 3 controllers, 2 chambers, 3 different fermentation temps.

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This is great. My takeaway is that since I like a little less bitterness and I enjoy the floral aspect, I will probably keep it under 64. Well done!!

pickles said:

This thread has jumped the shark...

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Excellent input tickle pickle :cross:

These should be ready to pour on Sunday... they're in the keezer and tapped, just waiting for more bubbles.

I've currently got a American Amber Ale fermenting using US-05 with a target temperature of 64. The temperature has fluctuated a little to either side of that, but I'm hoping it comes out well.

Based upon this thread, I decided that targeting the warmer end of the "optimal" range of US-05 was something I did not want to repeat this time to see if I liked the results from a cooler ferment better.

Yeast was pitched late Saturday night, and there was still a nice krausen layer as of this morning. Probably going to be a slower ferment than my other batches with this yeast, but I think it'll be worth it.

Thanks for the thread, golfduke!

orangemen5 said:

If your temp is set at 66 isn't your fermentation temp going to be in the 70's? In just curious because I don't understand how ppl use temp controllers. If you set your temp controlled set up to 63 say. How do you still know what the actual fermentation temp is ?? Even then doesn't the temp rise and fall as peak fermentation hits the gradually decreases?

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I use a plastic gallon container (the ones that I get when I buy RO water at the grocery store) filled with water with the temp controller probe in that. The water, and it's change in temp, will be right around the same as the wort.

FightingBob said:

I use a plastic gallon container (the ones that I get when I buy RO water at the grocery store) filled with water with the temp controller probe in that. The water, and it's change in temp, will be right around the same as the wort.

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I respectfully disagree. First, one volume of fluid will not behave the same as a different volume thermodynamocally. Fluctuations from ambient temperatures are buffered as volume increases in a vessel. Your water sample will swing a lot faster that your beer, assuming you don't have the probe buried in 5 gallons of it.

Second, and more importantly, fermentation is surprisingly exothermic. I've measured 10+ degree increases in wort from ambient chamber temps during particularly vigorous fermentations. As an average, 6-8 degrees is more normal.

This is why thermal probes are worth their weight in gold and IMHO essential to consistent beer- instead of adjusting to the chamber temps, you are adjusting the chamber to the beer's temp.

That above post came off really snobby, sorry. That wasn't my intent. You can make excellent beer without thermowells or even active temp control... In fact, I still ferment in my basement stairwell for some belgians without any control and think they come out really well.

I was just more commenting on the scientific basis of measuring fermentation temp most accurately.

golfduke said:

That above post came off really snobby, sorry. That wasn't my intent. You can make excellent beer without thermowells or even active temp control... In fact, I still ferment in my basement stairwell for some belgians without any control and think they come out really well.

I was just more commenting on the scientific basis of measuring fermentation temp most accurately.

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Yeah, my beer tastes pretty good and I've brewed with constancy, even my lagers. I also can fit two buckets/carboys/better bottles in my chest freezer-turned fermentation chamber. With only one prob, the gallon of water seemed like the best compromise. Def better than the swamp cooler i used to use. If I ever go pro, I'll have more precise temp control.

FightingBob said:

Yeah, my beer tastes pretty good and I've brewed with constancy, even my lagers. I also can fit two buckets/carboys/better bottles in my chest freezer-turned fermentation chamber. With only one prob, the gallon of water seemed like the best compromise. Def better than the swamp cooler i used to use. If I ever go pro, I'll have more precise temp control.

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I tape the probe to the outside of my bucket or carboy and insulate over the probe. I believe this gets me within a degree or so of the wort without messing with a thermowell. During active fermentation the wort mixes itself quite well, after that phase it would be difficult to argue about a reason to expect rapid temp fluctuations that would make the temperature near the edge of the fermenter a much different temperature than wart in the middle.

When I have 2 fermentors in the chamber the newest gets the probe.

There is one reason you might want to put the probe into a smaller volume of water. The temperature changes faster, so the compressor will cycle more often, making smaller corrections.

As an example, say you have a thermowell with a controller set for 62 F with a one degree differential. When the beer gets up to 63F the compressor kicks in to cool it down to 62F. That’s going to take a while. The compressor is not designed for that, it could burn up.

If you measure the gallon jug temperature, the compressor will kick on earlier and more often. The regulation will be tighter.

It won’t automatically compensate for the fermentation heat, but you can eyeball it and guess.

golfduke said:

Second, and more importantly, fermentation is surprisingly exothermic. I've measured 10+ degree increases in wort from ambient chamber temps during particularly vigorous fermentations. As an average, 6-8 degrees is more normal.

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In another thread I did the math and figured out that my 5% ABV house ale will produce about 820 BTU or a 20º F total energy absorption. Over the space of let's say a week this doesn't add up to my 5 gallons of beer being 6-8 degrees warmer than ambient.

I'm not calling you a liar, just curious what your conditions were that caused this? I've never seen more than a degree or two of difference provided there was some air circulation.

LBussy said:

In another thread I did the math and figured out that my 5% ABV house ale will produce about 820 BTU or a 20º F total energy absorption. Over the space of let's say a week this doesn't add up to my 5 gallons of beer being 6-8 degrees warmer than ambient.

I'm not calling you a liar, just curious what your conditions were that caused this? I've never seen more than a degree or two of difference provided there was some air circulation.

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I know most of my beers run 6-10º warmer than ambient. Just made a black ipa and its in my basement holding steady at 59-60 and beer temp is sitting at 68 currently. Not much air circulation. But other beers I have done have barely warmed above ambient. I think its black magic or witchcraft personally.

LBussy said:

In another thread I did the math and figured out that my 5% ABV house ale will produce about 820 BTU or a 20º F total energy absorption. Over the space of let's say a week this doesn't add up to my 5 gallons of beer being 6-8 degrees warmer than ambient.

I'm not calling you a liar, just curious what your conditions were that caused this? I've never seen more than a degree or two of difference provided there was some air circulation.

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I don't doubt your calculations, but my thermometers don't lie. I'm a biochemist by trade... I've witnessed several (I.e. more than 50%) of my beers go higher than 6 degrees above ambient, and thats across a range. Most of my beers are in the 1.050's. this is in a closed fridge with a Thermowell and a ptc100 style temp probe and readout in the beer and air in the fridge. Do all the thermo calculations you want, but my results are my results. I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion one way or the other, just posting my experiences.

golfduke said:

I don't doubt your calculations, but my thermometers don't lie. I'm a biochemist by trade... I've witnessed several (I.e. more than 50%) of my beers go higher than 6 degrees above ambient, and thats across a range. Most of my beers are in the 1.050's. this is in a closed fridge with a Thermowell and a ptc100 style temp probe and readout in the beer and air in the fridge. Do all the thermo calculations you want, but my results are my results. I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion one way or the other, just posting my experiences.

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Is it possible in that closed space, even with it being cooled, that there's not enough air movement to keep the carboy surface cooled? It's only 240 watts of energy but that's probably a lot in a small space with no air movement. You say fridge - is that a late-model fridge with a fan or ore like an old static cone?

A beer in the 1.050's is close to the one for which I did the calculations. I get that your thermometer does not lie but then again you know the rules of matter and energy. Gotta come from somewhere (or not be allowed to go somewhere in this case).

It's all very interesting for discussion fodder.

Wynne-R said:

There is one reason you might want to put the probe into a smaller volume of water. The temperature changes faster, so the compressor will cycle more often, making smaller corrections.

As an example, say you have a thermowell with a controller set for 62 F with a one degree differential. When the beer gets up to 63F the compressor kicks in to cool it down to 62F. That’s going to take a while. The compressor is not designed for that, it could burn up.

If you measure the gallon jug temperature, the compressor will kick on earlier and more often. The regulation will be tighter.

It won’t automatically compensate for the fermentation heat, but you can eyeball it and guess.

Click to expand...

Unless you bypass the Thermostat on your fridge/freezer your compressor will only run as long as it takes to get the AIR temp to the thermostat's setting.
The compressor will run far less when you're monitoring a larger mass. My old ge fridge swings over 10 degrees (air temp) while maintaining a 2 degree fermenter temp range.
Using another thermometer to monitor chamber air temps will show you exactly what is going on and it's a good exercise for understanding the difference in temps between the air, smaller containers, and your fermenters.

Fermentation is an exothermic process, so the production of heat isn't debatable.

Now, is it a significant production of heat (i.e. can it raise the temperature of the fermenter above ambient temperature)? Mine always does, even on 1.050 beers.

LBussy said:

Is it possible in that closed space, even with it being cooled, that there's not enough air movement to keep the carboy surface cooled? It's only 240 watts of energy but that's probably a lot in a small space with no air movement. You say fridge - is that a late-model fridge with a fan or ore like an old static cone?

A beer in the 1.050's is close to the one for which I did the calculations. I get that your thermometer does not lie but then again you know the rules of matter and energy. Gotta come from somewhere (or not be allowed to go somewhere in this case).

It's all very interesting for discussion fodder.

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I agree on the interesting part... My fridge is a late-model w/fan. I'll post some pics of my setup when I get home tonight...

Here is something sort of useful as well. This was the last belgian I did without any temp control at all. I had just read Brew Like a Monk, and noted that Jolly Pumpkin and Russian River just pitch at x temp and let it go unmonitored through 90% of fermentation. I hooked up 2 ptc probes to monitor air temp and beer temp inside of a thermowell and made a graph...

The results were pretty interesting.

LBussy said:

In another thread I did the math and figured out that my 5% ABV house ale will produce about 820 BTU or a 20º F total energy absorption. Over the space of let's say a week this doesn't add up to my 5 gallons of beer being 6-8 degrees warmer than ambient.

I'm not calling you a liar, just curious what your conditions were that caused this? I've never seen more than a degree or two of difference provided there was some air circulation.

Click to expand...

I have built, maintained,repaired or broke about every mechanical invention for 20+ years and after dealing with literally 1000`s of engineers, ONE thing I know is Im just a dumb mechanic but it dont always work from paper to reality. Too many examples to list and Im sure they are just as critical about me as I am about them

golfduke said:

Here is something sort of useful as well. This was the last belgian I did without any temp control at all. I had just read Brew Like a Monk, and noted that Jolly Pumpkin and Russian River just pitch at x temp and let it go unmonitored through 90% of fermentation. I hooked up 2 ptc probes to monitor air temp and beer temp inside of a thermowell and made a graph...

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That is pretty interesting. Especially the continued difference at the end (I assume they were calibrated beforehand). Not what I would have expected.

I do not yet have a way to datalog but I will soon. I'll have to do some more figgerin'.

Brew a batch and look at the thermometer

This is off topic, but the OP seems down with it, so here goes.

I was in on that thread Lee mentioned. My model yielded a much bigger number.

The following example is based on a beer that starts at 1.066 and finishes at 1.016. That’s 12° P or 2.28 kg extract in a 19L batch.
I got 141 kilocalories per kilogram in “The Handbook of Brewing”.
2.28kg * 141 kc/kg=321.48kc
Divide that by 19L and that’s 16.92° C or 30.45° F

For comparison to Lee’s number that’s 1275 BTU.

I ferment in a water bath and the beer is .5 -1.0°F warmer than the water during most of the fermentation. That’s 4.5 gallons of beer in 6.0 gallons of water in an insulated tub. I can easily believe a six or eight degree rise in still air.

golfduke said:

These should be ready to pour on Sunday... they're in the keezer and tapped, just waiting for more bubbles.

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Back on topic, how do they taste?

I'm on a service call for work and won't be back until tomorrow night... I'm interested in the results.

golfduke said:

I'm on a service call for work and won't be back until tomorrow night... I'm interested in the results.

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Safe to say that you're not the only one!

Welp, good news and bad news I believe... I got home last night and after unpacking, went straight to the bar and got to sampling. It turned out to be calamitous. Apparently either my regulator is dying or I bumped something, because the gas pressure was set to about 3psi. As a result, the beers were drastically undercarbed. I reset the regulator and will see what it looks like tonight.

Another issue, which is the more important one- I think* my 68 degree sample picked up an infection somewhere Either that, or it miraculously picked up some very distinct off-flavors in a short amount of time.

The 60 and 64 samples tasted very similar, with the 60 sample being separated from the 64 as more floral on the nose and more subdued in hop bitterness. The difference is very slight, however, and I doubt an average Joe Q. Drinker could tell the difference.

Now onto the 68 sample... It poured as one would expect, but it picked up a little bit of a fruity nose when chilled. Tasting revealed something completely different from initial appearance and prior flat tastings. Upon first sip, I immediately pulled a prominent-yet-not-overpowering apple/pear/stonefruit taste. It only got more pronounced as the sample warmed. It was almost as if the beer was cut with 90% beer/10% apple juice. It wasn't tart like any brett infection I've tasted, but just very fruity in nature. I won't lie- the sample wasn't terrible, but it definitely wasn't true to style... I honestly have no idea where it came from. I'm not sure if it's an infection or some sort of ester profile that gets exaggerated with chilling or what... But all I know is that is was not like the other two samples at all. I've made fruit beers that had less fruit taste, not gonna lie.

I really am pretty convinced it isn't the yeast, especially because I didn't pick anything up in prior samples. I wonder if I didn't sanitize my corny well enough- it was a new-to-me keg that hadn't been racked into yet...

Anyways, I'm going to give it more time to carb up at proper serving pressures, and re-test. I just fear that I may have lost one of the samples to accurately compare to, unfortunately.

So in other words, anywhere from 60-68 and you'll be fine.

I had been following this thread and thought I would chime in with my current experience.

My temperature controller broke recently, so I've been fermenting in my compact fridge set at it's lowest setting. Even with that, it's really only appropriate for lagers because it keeps a wort/beer temperature (not ambient temp) of 50-55F.

I still decided to pitch some US-05 into my latest beer. It fermented between 50F and 55F for 5 days. During that time, it went from OG 1.055 to 1.018. Then I turned the fridge off and let it freely rise to 65F. 2 days later it was at a stable FG of 1.012. I mashed high and my goal was an OG slightly over 1.010.

I've read others talk about tartness or peach flavors from cool fermentation using US-05, but I'm not picking up any of that. It's dry hopping now and all I'm getting from the samples I've tried is an extremely clean ale. It doesn't have a lager yeast character to it, I would just say it's a very clean ale at this point. Or I guess I should say, it tastes nothing like beers tasted at this point in the process when I used S-23, W-34/70, WLP830, or 810. I know some like to say lager yeast leaves no character, but I say it does, and this one with US-05 doesn't come off as a psuedo-lager. It's just a very clean ale.

Of course time will tell and I'll know for sure what it's like once this batch is ready in about a month. I was just surprised to see it ferment so easily and quickly at this temperature range. It didn't stall or slow down, but then again, me letting it freely rise during the tail end of fermentation probably helped with that. At the rate it was going though, I don't see that it would have stalled.

I use this yeast all the time. I usually ferment with US-05 at 70 degrees and get a good results. Can't wait for the outcome of this experiments.

I've got a batch of it going at 62* right now in a blonde ale.

I'll report back in... maybe 4-5 days after it's done and settled on what it taste like...

I can say that it's going much slower than it has in the past, with just a water bath in the garage.. I have it in a temp controlled freezer with the probe on it...