WLP800 lager at 1.030 after 4 weeks?!

Hey everyone. I'm sure there are plenty of posts about this, but I thought I'd throw it out to the community for advice/suggestions.

I brewed JZ's bohemian pilsner, brew day went great, ended up with OG of 1.056. Chilled wort to 44 degrees, pitched a nice big starter of WLP800, and slowly brought temp up to 50 over the next few days. Had nice fermentation start, etc. All looks good.

Well, I took a sample today, and although there is still obvious signs of fermentation activity (airlocks are "up," and it does bubble every 10 seconds or so) I am only down to 1.030. (I checked last week, and it was at 1.032, week before that 1.038) So it dropped from 1.056 to 1.038 the first week or so, now it seems to be crawling. I brewed this last year, and it did take awhile, but was much faster.

So anyhow, should I just RDWHAHB? Or Is there something I should be doing? Is yeast "repitching" advised with lagers?

Thanks for reading and replying.

Has it been at 50 the whole 4 weeks?

Also, you should post the recipe as well as any other info you recorded from the brewday.

If you know JZ, you may know who Tasty is--google his lager fermentation regimen. I used it on my latest CAP with great results. Super clean, super brite, and I finished the initial ferment at 66F or so after ramping up from 52F where it started.

dawgmatic said:

Has it been at 50 the whole 4 weeks?

Also, you should post the recipe as well as any other info you recorded from the brewday.

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after ramping up to 50 (over the course of a day or so,) I held it there for the next 3 weeks. Last week I nudged it up to 53, and roused the yeast. Again, there is fermentation activity in the airlock, so it is fermenting... just slower than usual.

Brew note wise,
* 12 gallon batch
* 21 pounds of pilsner and 1.25 pounds of carapils
*50/50 blend of tap and RO water (my normal lager water mix)
*mashed at 154 for 90, did a starch test to check conversion
* 90 minute boil adding 4oz saaz at 60, 4oz at 30, 2oz at 10, 2oz at flameout.
*chilled through plate chiller down to about 68
*2 nice and full carboys in the fermentation chamber at 8:00pm
*10:00 am next morning, wort down to pitching temp (44 degrees) pitched plenty (and I mean big old starter using Mr. Malty calculation) spun up on stirplate with new vials of wlp800
*Preboil, OG, and volume numbers were all on.

Piratwolf said:

If you know JZ, you may know who Tasty is--google his lager fermentation regimen. I used it on my latest CAP with great results. Super clean, super brite, and I finished the initial ferment at 66F or so after ramping up from 52F where it started.

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Hey thanks for the advice. I sure do know who Tasty is. I did Google and found a few references but nothing absolute as to his regimen. Can you help a brewer out? Do you have a link? (thanks)

Anyhow, I will try his technique next time. Brewing is about experimenting. I'm game!

I would look at oxygenation. If you did everything else perfectly and still didn't oxygenate, you will risk a stuck fermentation.

What about mash temp? 154F seems high for a lager. Not 1.030 high, mind you. But if you struck a little hot and settled down to 154F, it's possible that you still had some hot spots and reduced the fermentability of your wort. It may be that your yeast just slowly chewing through what's there. I was listening to JZ's German Pils show yesterday and he was advocating 146-48F for 90 min or more.

As urbanmyth said, oxygen can play a role as well.

I know this is old news, but are you using a refractometer to check your post-fermentation gravities? They don't work once alcohol is in the mix.

Veritas said:

Hey thanks for the advice. I sure do know who Tasty is. I did Google and found a few references but nothing absolute as to his regimen. Can you help a brewer out? Do you have a link? (thanks)

Anyhow, I will try his technique next time. Brewing is about experimenting. I'm game!

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http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/fo...&sid=fa04842afe5d0d3e24f62ade6b089603#_thread

I let mine lager for 8 weeks, but otherwise followed this regimen pretty closely. My best lager yet.

Thanks to everyone for all of your responses! This is a great community of brewers and I appreciate your help. Reading through some of your posts (and without quoting all of them) here are a few more pieces of info:

* I brew using a single tier RIMS system (based on the electric brewery's build) and my mash recirculates constantly.
* Sorry that I forgot to mention that I do oxygenate my wort (pure O2 for 60 seconds, lots 'o oxygen)
* My mash temp is at 154 is a bit high for some pilsner recipes, but JZ's bohemian recipe does mash a bit higher than others I've seen (ie: 154) I'm pretty sure my RIMS maintains enough flow to minimize hot spots, but I might have struck a bit hot and it came down to 154. Not sure about that one... interesting.
* I use a hydrometer to take my measurements, but also "double check" it using my refractometer and adjust it for fermentation using Beersmith software. (But the 1.030 measurement was taken from the hydrometer.)
* And thanks Piratwolf for the link. I'll try that process next time!

Again, thanks for the feedback. If you have more thoughts and ideas, I'm open.

The only other thing is whether your starter was at 44F like the wort when you pitched? If it was at room temp and you pitched into 44F, it may be possible that the rapid change killed or weakened a lot of your yeast? Just a thought.

Piratwolf said:

The only other thing is whether your starter was at 44F like the wort when you pitched? If it was at room temp and you pitched into 44F, it may be possible that the rapid change killed or weakened a lot of your yeast? Just a thought.

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One more question to add here. How big was your starter? I have a vested interest in this one. I am making a 1.047 German pils this weekend and haven't made a lager in years. My plan is 2 packs in a 1.5l starter. It will get o2 at the start then go on a stir plate Thursday night. Brew day is Sunday. I plan to pull the starter off the plate Saturday night and put it in my ferm chamber at 50f to acclimate and drop the yeast.

Sunday is supposed to be cool so I should be able to chill into the upper 50s. Then the wort will go into the chamber to keep cooling while I clean up and store my gear. Will pitch as my last item and shoot for 52-52 for my primary ferment.

I listened to the German pils show from the brewing network earlier this week. John Plise did a similar pitch around 55-57 and cooled to 48 within 12 hrs. Apparently took 3rd place in nationals. I am using a similar grain bill to his.

Piratwolf said:

The only other thing is whether your starter was at 44F like the wort when you pitched? If it was at room temp and you pitched into 44F, it may be possible that the rapid change killed or weakened a lot of your yeast? Just a thought.

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Great thought, and yes; my yeast was pitched at 44.

winvarin said:

One more question to add here. How big was your starter? I have a vested interest in this one. I am making a 1.047 German pils this weekend and haven't made a lager in years. My plan is 2 packs in a 1.5l starter. It will get o2 at the start then go on a stir plate Thursday night. Brew day is Sunday. I plan to pull the starter off the plate Saturday night and put it in my ferm chamber at 50f to acclimate and drop the yeast.

Sunday is supposed to be cool so I should be able to chill into the upper 50s. Then the wort will go into the chamber to keep cooling while I clean up and store my gear. Will pitch as my last item and shoot for 52-52 for my primary ferment.

I listened to the German pils show from the brewing network earlier this week. John Plise did a similar pitch around 55-57 and cooled to 48 within 12 hrs. Apparently took 3rd place in nationals. I am using a similar grain bill to his.

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I am a fan of MONSTER starters for Lagers. I created my starter from 2 vials of yeast, and built it up over the course of a week to about 7 liters. (Stir plate and 5 liter Erlenmeyer flasks!) (BTW, I brew 12 gallon batches.)

At that size, why not just pitch 1 vial into a 2 gallon small batch of drinkable starter? I wouldn't think that would be underpitching if it were a small enough beer, but maybe I'm wrong.

*Update: Okay, so I'm back from a business trip to Colorado, and I decided to check the gravity of my pilsner. (It'll be 5 weeks on the yeast tomorrow.) So... yes; it's down... to 1.028... a whole .002. WTF? It's fermenting, but so slowly that the molasses in my cupboard is saying, "Dude! Hurry up!" Know what I'm sayin'? Anyhow; the flavor is awesome (saaz, malt, crisp, dry) but it is sloooooowwww.... thanks for your thoughts and ideas. Good thing I have an awesome ESB, Jamil's Evil Twin, Porter, centennial blonde, and a Saison on.... So I decided to rouse the **** out of it, and see what happens (yes; I know I run the risk of adding O2... but at this point, I say "Pshaw.")

If it reading that high, yet tastes dry, I would call your hydrometer into question.

urbanmyth said:

If it reading that high, yet tastes dry, I would call your hydrometer into question.

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That's a good idea. I'll check it out. There is still a bit of residual sweetness I'm picking up on the sample, but damn, it's got that nice malty-saazy thing going on. I hope it turns out!

Quick update: So it's 5 days later; I brewed this about 6 weeks ago, and split the batch between to carboys (about 5.5 gallons each) I've been sampling the beer from "Carboy #1" which today is at... 1.028. (Really??) I decided to check "Carboy #2" for the first time, which is down to 1.020. (Better, but not great.) Maybe I'll see if I can get them down a few more points and blend my 2 carboys into kegs, settle in around 1.022, and call it a Maibock?

How's this beer doing? I decided to go ahead and brew my split batch of German pils last Sunday. 5 gallons in each fermenter. 1.054 (overshot on my boil and ended up a few points high). 85% pils; 10% munich and 5% carapils. Tettnanger to about 25 IBU.

One carboy got WLP800 (2 vials in 1.6L starter, grown with O2 on a stirplate). The other got 2 rehydrated packs of Saflager 34/70. The dried yeast ran warmer than the 800 all week. I pitched at 56F and got them both to 52F in 12 hrs. Both started fermenting in less than 12 hrs. The 800 ran between 50-52 all week until friday when I kicked my fridge to 54F since it was slowing down. The 34/70 has been at 52-54F all week. When I bumped the temp up to 54 to warm the 800, the 34/70 stayed at 54F.

Checked gravity today (within a few hours of being exactly one week out from pitch). I was not quite expecting what I got. The WLP 800 already looked like it was clearing. The 34/70 was still murky.

The WLP800 is sitting at 1.029 while the 34/70 is still cloudy and reading 1.016. I'm expecting around a 1.013 finish for these.

The 800 still tastes and smells a little on the sweet side (for obvious reasons). There's also a hint of diacetyl.

The 34/70 is already crisping up a bit. I don't get any diacetyl on the nose.

Figuring I will leave them both at 54F for another week and begin the ramp up for diacetyl rest next weekend. While I get no diacetyl on the 34/70, I see no harm in the temperature raise.

Wondering if I need to take the 800 to room temp or leave it a few more days. It stayed pretty close to 50-52, whereas the 34/70 ran about 54 the whole week. I am wondering if the 800 is just running a degree or 2 behind the other because of the temp.

It is my first experience with this yeast but my results seem similar to yours, though I am just a week in at this point. I wonder if the 800 is just slower to move?

winvarin said:

How's this beer doing? I decided to go ahead and brew my split batch of German pils last Sunday. 5 gallons in each fermenter. 1.054 (overshot on my boil and ended up a few points high). 85% pils; 10% munich and 5% carapils. Tettnanger to about 25 IBU.

The WLP800 is sitting at 1.029 while the 34/70 is still cloudy and reading 1.016. I'm expecting around a 1.013 finish for these.

The 800 still tastes and smells a little on the sweet side (for obvious reasons). There's also a hint of diacetyl.

It is my first experience with this yeast but my results seem similar to yours, though I am just a week in at this point. I wonder if the 800 is just slower to move?

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Interesting that you're having some "challenges" with WLP800 too. I checked mine a few days ago, and my "testing" carboy is still around 1.026, while carboy #2 is down to about 1.019. (I do 10 gallon batches) It has been on the yeast for 6 weeks! Anyhow, I'm going to give it until the weekend, and check 'em again. I think that the activity is slowing (the airlocks don't have a lot going on in them, but there's still a bit of activity.)

So, I'll probably crash them this weekend, and blend them into the kegs, settling for a 1.022 beer, around 4%, quaffable and saazy, with a touch of residual sweetness. I'll just tell my friends that it is a "Helles pilsner from the bohemian regions of Germany, to the north, where they like a bit of residual sweetness in their lagers...." And hope they buy it!

I'll be curious to see how yours turns out!

Would you consider mine challenged at this point? I went from 1054 to 1029 in 7 days. The dry yeast has performed faster but also ran about 2f warmer than the liquid.

I was going to check gravity this weekend them begin ramping the temp up for a d rest. I figure 25 points is a fair, if slow first week. If i have squeezed another few points out by the weekend, the warm up should help it go the rest of the way.

By 2 weeks in, if I am at least in the low 20s, shouldn't I be able to warm it up for the d rest without risking off flavors?

Mine dropped that much the first week, too. Do you still have fermentation activity in the airlock? If so, I'd wait. Last time I made my pilsner, it dropped to 1.028 or so after 7... sat there for about another week or so at the same gravity, I roused the yeast a bit and upped the temps to 52 degrees, and it took off again and finished at 1.015! If it were me, I'd be patient for another week or two. (Yes, I know it's tough!)

I tend not to do a D-rest, because I pitch cold (44 degrees) and ramp up to 50 over the course of about 48 hours, which limits the Diacetyl precursors. So no need for a rest! (worked great last time.)

It's still gurgling regularly, though its slowed enough for me to go back to an airlock. It had picked up enough at day 3 that I had put a blow off on it.

I have it sitting at 54 right now and it's holding steady at that temp. The beer is by no means clear. Still some yeast in suspension. It tasted clean but still malty sweet. I was just surprised at the stark difference between the dry yeast and the 800. I know a week is early on a lager, but it did give me pause to think that one yeast was almost to my expected FG while the other was still sitting a little over 50% apparent attenuation. I was figuring either the dry yeast was ahead of schedule and the 800 was on track, or the dry yeast was on track and the 800 is trying to stall.

I haven't brewed a lager in long enough that I might as well call myself a new lager brewer

I have a batch of Jamil's Bohemian Pilsner lagering right now, and ran into the same slow fermentation issues with WLP800.

I pitched at 44 and let it go up to 50 over a couple days. After 18 days, it was only at 1.030 (from 1.054 or so). Didn't taste any diacetyl, but I let it go up to 60 just to see if it would get going more quickly. Finally finished at 1.015 after just about a month.

I had attributed the slow fermentation to underpitching- I made a 2L starter with 2 vials but I don't have a stir plate. After reading this thread I think it may just be a very slow fermenting yeast in general. At any rate, all of the samples tasted progressively better so I'm hoping it comes out well. This was my first lager attempt.

orz said:

I have a batch of Jamil's Bohemian Pilsner lagering right now, and ran into the same slow fermentation issues with WLP800.

I pitched at 44 and let it go up to 50 over a couple days. After 18 days, it was only at 1.030 (from 1.054 or so). Didn't taste any diacetyl, but I let it go up to 60 just to see if it would get going more quickly. Finally finished at 1.015 after just about a month.

I had attributed the slow fermentation to underpitching- I made a 2L starter with 2 vials but I don't have a stir plate. After reading this thread I think it may just be a very slow fermenting yeast in general. At any rate, all of the samples tasted progressively better so I'm hoping it comes out well. This was my first lager attempt.

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Interesting turn of events, orz. Seems like our fermentation times were similar. I've been on the yeast now for 6 weeks and it's crawling. I think I'll bump it up to 60 (although it doesn't need a D rest) and see if she wakes back up. I'll keep everyone posted.

Lagers are a labor of love... that's for sure.

orz said:

I had attributed the slow fermentation to underpitching- I made a 2L starter with 2 vials but I don't have a stir plate. After reading this thread I think it may just be a very slow fermenting yeast in general. At any rate, all of the samples tasted progressively better so I'm hoping it comes out well. This was my first lager attempt.

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What did mrmalty recommend? I did 1.6L with 2 vials but I used O2 and a stir plate. Right about what mr malty recommended for that beer. My starter hit krausen and subsided in 48 hrs. I stored the flask in my ferment chamber at ferment temps while I was brewing. The starter and wort were within 2f of eachother when I pitched.

I had strong, visible ferment in less than 12 hrs, but my beer was only at 1029 (from 1054) after a week. I am more inclined to think this yeast is a slow mover than to think you over pitched

I think Mr. Malty suggested right about 2L for the starter, with intermittent shaking. I don't have the recipe in front of me to check exactly what the OG was to run the numbers again. I also chilled the starter and wort down to 44F separately before pitching.

Fermentation seemed to take off quickly, I had a ~1 inch thick krausen after 2 days or so. Krausen stayed there all the way through the whole month or so it took to ferment, dropping just about the time it hit finishing gravity.

So now the wait begins. On his German Pils show, JZ says that lager yeast will do anything at low temp, including clearing up byproducts like diacetyl, given enough time. On the same show, John Plise said that his pils usually gets a minimum of 3 weeks on primary yeast at ferment temps and stays at that temp as long as he detects diacetyl (as much as 6 weeks I think).

So my quandary is, do I leave it at current temp (I warmed to 56) until I hit terminal gravity? Or do I go ahead and start ramping to D rest temps to see if it will go ahead and get through those last 15 points?

Either way, I am leaving it where it is until this weekend. That will at least give it 2 full weeks at primary temps

An added note - you pitched at 44 and ramped up. I pitched at 56-ish and came down to 50-52 over the first 12 hrs. That seems to be the main difference in our fermentation schedule so far.

It seems as if temperature and rousing may have been the trick. I had moved the beer to 56F and rocked the carboy a few times to rouse the yeast yesterday before leaving for work. I came home last night to the temp still reading 56F on the carboy, but the beer was noticeably more cloudy again, and about a 2 inch krausen had formed.

I turned the temp back down to 54F. As of this morning, the krausen and airlock activity are still present, the beer is still cloudy and the temp is still at 54F. It looks like the small warm up and rousing woke everybody up and made them realize that there was still some food on the table.

A quick update for those who might be curious: It is now 7 weeks since brewing this pilsner. Carboy #1 is down from 1.026 to 1.024 (.002 in a week) and Carboy #2 is down from 1.019 to 1.017 (down .002) Carboy #1 sample tastes great but does have a bit of sweetness to it (although less than in the past) and Carboy #2 sample is just awesome. It's close enough to terminal that it has that great "champagne bubble" light yellow thing going on, with lots of saaz character. It's a winner.

I decided to bump up my temp to 60 for a D-rest (although it doesn't need it) to see if it'll clean up and maybe drop a few more points. I'm going then keg the batches separately, calling on a pilsner and the other a "bohemian style lager." Good beer either way.

Something occurred to me about you situation yesterday. I was listening to an old JZ podcast about a completely different style from what we're talking about here, but the logic follows.

In the podcast, the guy who'd made the beer they were tasting made one big starter for both carboys, then did the best job he could to shake up and split the starter evenly between the 2 "by eye". There was a noticeable difference in the fermentation profile between the 2. Jamil told him that when trying to split by hand, the slightest mistake (not mixing well enough, over or under pouring), could result in a differential of up to 25% in the pitching rate between the 2.

Even under the best of circumstances Jamil said, you're going to have a difference of about 10% if you decant down to just enough liquid to get the yeast back into suspension then try to split it. He recommended adding a small amount of your fresh wort, equal amounts from both fermenters, and placing it into your decanted starter. Swirl that back into solution and pitch. The theory is that with the starter diluted, you run a better chance of getting similar pitching volumes in the 2 carboys.

How did you split your yeast between these 2?

winvarin said:

How did you split your yeast between these 2?

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Great question and excellent point! I did make my starter on a stir plate in a huge 5000 ml flask, then decanted, slurries back into suspension, and used the measurements on the flask to split it as evenly as possible. That's interesting that it might account for such a difference. I'll have to try your suggested method next time

By the way, bumping up my fermentation to 60 has increased the activity in both carboys. I'll check it next weekend and post the results.

Update on my WLP800. Quick recap. I have 10 gallons going. 5 gallons was fermented with Saflager 34/70. The other 5 I used a starter of WLP800 (2 vials in a 1.6L starter). At one week from pitching, the dried yeast had fermented down to 1.016. The WLP800 was still at 1.029 (starting gravity 1.055). Both beers were pitched and fermented at 52-54F.

When I had checked the gravity at week one, I roused the WLP800 and got a few days of relatively vigorous ferment out of it again. Last Wednesday (day 18 from pitch), I brought the temp on the fermenting fridge up to 64F. Neither beer showed signs of diacetyl. But I was hoping the warmer temp would help the 800 finish up and help both beers just in case there were any byproducts I was missing that need to be cleaned up.

I pulled hydrometer samples and tasted both last night (day 22 from pitch). The dry yeast beer is sitting at 1.012 (my expected target). It has a nice graininess and the hops are just barely perceptable. Very clean. I can already see signs of where this one will end up after a few weeks lagering in the keg.

The WLP800 is at around 1.016-17. It is noticeably sweeter than the beer that's already reached terminal gravity, but not as sweet as it was 2 weeks ago. This one is also very clean, despite the wort sweetness I still get from it. I think it will get there. It's just taking its time. I roused it again last night and when I checked on it before work this morning, it had about an inch of krausen and was bubbling away again. I think this yeast just keeps trying to go to sleep on me. I have it still sitting at 64 and plan on giving it a swirl once or twice a day until this weekend, to keep the yeast in suspension. If it hits 1.012 and the other beer stays there, I will start chilling them down over the week and will likely keg over mother's day weekend.

I plan to go straight from the primary to keg. Then cold crash them in the keg for a week or so, draw off any yeast that drops, then keep them cold for another 6-8 weeks for lagering.

Veritas said:

Lagers are a labor of love... that's for sure.

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I'm beginning to see what you mean. I have some grain and hops for a bitter that are tamping their feet impatiently, looking at the lagers as they eat up fermenter space on their own sweet time.

I swear last night I heard the Fuggles say, "Oi. Hurry up in there. If 'ed brewed us first 'ed be drinking us by now."

Veritas said:

A quick update for those who might be curious: It is now 7 weeks since brewing this pilsner. Carboy #1 is down from 1.026 to 1.024 (.002 in a week) and Carboy #2 is down from 1.019 to 1.017 (down .002) Carboy #1 sample tastes great but does have a bit of sweetness to it (although less than in the past) and Carboy #2 sample is just awesome. It's close enough to terminal that it has that great "champagne bubble" light yellow thing going on, with lots of saaz character. It's a winner.

I decided to bump up my temp to 60 for a D-rest (although it doesn't need it) to see if it'll clean up and maybe drop a few more points. I'm going then keg the batches separately, calling on a pilsner and the other a "bohemian style lager." Good beer either way.

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So here we are 11 days later, a full 8 weeks and three days since brew day (8 weeks and 2 days since pitching the yeast) having bumped up to 60 for a few days, then up to 64 for the past week. And.... Carboy #1 has dropped from 1.024 down to 1.012 and Carboy #2 is down from 1.017 to 1.011!!!! The beer has cleared, and there is STILL a bit of fermentation activity, no diacetyl at all (due to low temps during initial fermentation) and the taste is amazing... crisp, dry, saazy goodness. I'm going to exercise extreme patience and wait until the weekend to crash this (in the primary) then keg... and them lager.... (So, I wonder if a 4 day lager would suffice? ) The lagering will be worth it.

So I think the moral of this story is to either: 1. Use a monster starter (even more then suggested) to compensate for the cooler fermentation, plus a TON of O2, or 2. Brew as usual and plan on bumping up the temp once it stalls. I'll try upping the yeast next time.

Veritas said:

So I think the moral of this story is to either: 1. Use a monster starter (even more then suggested) to compensate for the cooler fermentation, plus a TON of O2, or 2. Brew as usual and plan on bumping up the temp once it stalls. I'll try upping the yeast next time.

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I agree with you on both counts. I gave each carboy 60 sec of O2. May up that to 90 next time. I will probably bump my starter volume by 50% as well. I have mine at 64 right now and am hoping I can squeeze out those last 5 points.

Checked mine again on Saturday 5/4 just shy of 1 month in the primary and on day 9 of my high temp rest. I'd set the fridge t 64, but a cold snap in the latter part of the week has my beers at 60 f in the lager fridge.

The WLP800 beer is down to 1.012, my initial target. With the warmer temp, the second half of this batch (that got saflager 34/70) is at 1.010. I'm going to leave them at this temp until Tuesday night 5/7, the begin coming down a couple of degrees each day until I get into the 40s. Since I spent so much time jacking with the yeast, I intend to hit them both with gelatin so that I can get as clean a transfer as I can when going into the keg for lagering.