Summer Night (Dark raspberry saison) recipe critique

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rexbanner

rexbanner

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I just brewed a basil rye saison and have some 3711 yeast to use now. I was thinking of trying something like this:

Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Estimated Color: 22.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 27.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
6 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 53.3 %
4 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 2 35.6 %
4.0 oz Chocolate Wheat Malt (400.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.2 %
1 lbs Candi Sugar, Dark (180.0 SRM) Sugar 4 8.9 %
1.00 oz Sterling [7.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 25.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Sterling [7.50 %] - Boil 2.0 min Hop 6 2.2 IBUs
1.0 pkg French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [50.28 Yeast 7 -
1.00 lb Raspberries (Secondary 0.0 mins) Other 8 -


Any thoughts? I'm pretty set on the amount of raspberries, you may think it's too low but I like a really subtle contribution.
 
Ray Daniels recommends 1lb/per gallon in "Designing Great Beers" for fruits such as raspberries. I doubt you'll notice the 1 lb of raspberry in this recipe in the flavor. You may end up with a very, very subtle hint of it in the aroma, but I would honestly recommend 2 - 3 lbs of raspberries if you're going for a very subtle contribution.
 
Like darwin said 1lb is not enough, i would skip raspberries all together and add some cascade instead of 2min sterling for citrusy flavors thats goes great with 3711 profile (at list for me) or bump raspberries to 5lb for subtle flavor, anyway please post back your results
 
Darwin18 said:
Ray Daniels recommends 1lb/per gallon in "Designing Great Beers" for fruits such as raspberries. I doubt you'll notice the 1 lb of raspberry in this recipe in the flavor. You may end up with a very, very subtle hint of it in the aroma, but I would honestly recommend 2 - 3 lbs of raspberries if you're going for a very subtle contribution.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to be a dick, but I wrote that bit at the end for a reason. I've used raspberries before. 4 oz per gallon is plenty for me, and I'm sure you'd notice the contribution from that amount.
 
I've used raspberries a lot too and there are super strong doesn't take much....I think it's a cool idea
 
Schumed said:
I've used raspberries a lot too and there are super strong doesn't take much....I think it's a cool idea
Click to expand...

Yeah man, the thing with them is that the flavor is so one dimensional, it almost seems artificial. That's why I don't like it to be something you really notice. You can add more next time, but you can't subtract. Also, I don't really brew "fruit beers" in the sense that fruit takes center stage. It's a background player.

Kinda new to saisons but I think this recipe could work really well. D-180 is a really great ingredient to use.
 
rexbanner said:
Yeah man, the thing with them is that the flavor is so one dimensional, it almost seems artificial. That's why I don't like it to be something you really notice. You can add more next time, but you can't subtract. Also, I don't really brew "fruit beers" in the sense that fruit takes center stage. It's a background player.

Kinda new to saisons but I think this recipe could work really well. D-180 is a really great ingredient to use.
Click to expand...

Look into making your own candi syrup....It's real easy and the flavor is unique
 
Schumed said:
Look into making your own candi syrup....It's real easy and the flavor is unique
Click to expand...

Without going into details, it isn't possible to make candi syrup at home. It's more than just caramelized invert sugar.
 
rexbanner said:
Yeah man, the thing with them is that the flavor is so one dimensional, it almost seems artificial. That's why I don't like it to be something you really notice. You can add more next time, but you can't subtract. Also, I don't really brew "fruit beers" in the sense that fruit takes center stage. It's a background player.

Kinda new to saisons but I think this recipe could work really well. D-180 is a really great ingredient to use.
Click to expand...

Just beware of the color that D-180 will impart. I wanted a orangish color Saison, threw the 180 in and it came in amberish in color. I should say it was more color than I expected it to contribute.
 
Schemy said:
Just beware of the color that D-180 will impart. I wanted a orangish color Saison, threw the 180 in and it came in amberish in color. I should say it was more color than I expected it to contribute.
Click to expand...

I want it to be dark, also have midnight wheat in there.
 
Man I love the idea of this brew. I love saison and I love a little fruit in my beer (not all beers, some beers!). This will go on the list to brew!! Keep updating on the results please, like things you would change for next time (if any!)
 
davekippen said:
Man I love the idea of this brew. I love saison and I love a little fruit in my beer (not all beers, some beers!). This will go on the list to brew!! Keep updating on the results please, like things you would change for next time (if any!)
Click to expand...

Drinking this right now. Took me a while to keg since I had to make room, been slackin.

This is honestly one of the best beers I have ever tasted. Everything about this is perfect. It is chocolately but subtle, not roasty, with the perfect amount of raspberry and a nice malt backbone from the Vienna. I would not change a single thing about this beer, it is perfect. I also tasted it back to back with Stillwater's dark saison and this absolutely blows it out of the water.

If you are smart, brew this beer. I am one month from opening my own nano and this beer gives me confidence that I chose the right profession.
 
Awesome! I will put this on the list and report back my results. Thanks for sharing the recipe!

And congrats on the nano!! :tank:
 
One more question, what temp do you ferment your Saison's at? I usually go really high, like 80ish. Did you heat this one up or were you trying to keep the funk down?
 
davekippen said:
One more question, what temp do you ferment your Saison's at? I usually go really high, like 80ish. Did you heat this one up or were you trying to keep the funk down?
Click to expand...

I actually feel that lower temperatures work better with 3711. I did 62 with this but I guess I might change one thing, maybe try 66 or so.
 
davekippen said:
Ive been using WLP568 for mine. Not sure if it is similar to the 3711 or not?
Click to expand...

Never used 568 but if its similar to 530 or other Belgian strains I would say they are very similar but for a few key differences. 3711 French saison is reliably super dry at any temp and spits out a little too much fruit at 80, so I keep it low.
 
Just wanted to say that I have a keg of this on tap done with a few things done differently, like belgian saison yeast and hop changes, because of availablility and it is fantastic! Thanks for a great recipe to play with!
 
mrwaffles said:
Just wanted to say that I have a keg of this on tap done with a few things done differently, like belgian saison yeast and hop changes, because of availablility and it is fantastic! Thanks for a great recipe to play with!
Click to expand...

Thanks! Can't wait to brew this one again.
 
Going to brew this this weekend and only have a few questions question. When adding the raspberries did you use frozen or fresh, if fresh did you soak them in vodka or anything before hand? Did you add them whole or did you puree them? Lastly, I'm likely looking for more of a raspberry presence, for SWMBO, than you did so with that in mind and the fact that much of the sugar will get fermented out would you just add another lb or two of raspberries or would it be better to use raspbery extract at bottling?
 
Brewed this morning. Went good except for a couple things. I'm still battling figure out my evaporation and loss to trub amounts so I ended up with about 6.25gal in the fermenter. That caused my OG to be low, 1.048.
Then when pitching yeast it blew out of the white labs tube when I started to losen the cap. Lost about half the yeast so I scooped some out of the mason jar that I have of washed 566 in.
 
While I'm waiting for initial fermentation to finish I have one question.
Has anyone tried this without the raspberry? Since I ended up with more than 5.5 gal I'm thinking of keeping 1-1.5 gal without the raspberry.
 
bolus14 said:
While I'm waiting for initial fermentation to finish I have one question.
Has anyone tried this without the raspberry? Since I ended up with more than 5.5 gal I'm thinking of keeping 1-1.5 gal without the raspberry.
Click to expand...

I sort of did. Used blood orange added late in the boil but wimped out on the amount so I don't think it contributed much. Still ended up with a nice saison. Used the Wyeast Biere de Garde yeast.
Also used piloncillo (Mexican brown sugar) instead of the candi sugar.
 
Would you say that the chocolate wheat creates much chcoloate/coffee/roast taste or just more color? I know saison yeast can overpower a lot of faint aromas and tastes so just wonder if you picked up any of that type of taste or smell.
 
Not much chocolate or roast. Just color and probably some complexity/depth in the flavor. Likely contributed to head retention as well. Maybe some body? Didn't let it get too dry by mashing at 152+ though did get ~88% attenuation.
 
Tried a hydro sample while adding the raspberries tonight. While the Saison funk is still overly prominent I can't want to see what the raspberry does for this. I got a touch of coffee/bitter chocolate late in the taste. A little sourness, maybe, but I've had that in past Saisons and it has gone away with time.

So far she's down to 1.006. I'm expecting a little more of a drop from waking the yeast up with the fruit. If not it should still be good.
 
Almost 3 weeks into fermentation, it's been at 1.004 sfor over a week now so I'm pretty sure it's finished. I'm planning to bottle this weekend.

With around 6.25 gallons I've added 30oz of raspberries, works out to about 4.8oz per gallon, and at this point i'm happy with how it's tasting, it'll change once cold, carbonated, and the Saison yeast mellows. I'm just hoping I didn't overdo the raspberry, it's hard to guess how much it will change once the yeast spice and funkiness mellow.

I agree with Rdom that the malt's don't add much, maybe just a touch of complexity and depth for the style, but I'll see if that changes once it's bottled.
 
Bottled yesterday and I'm happy with how this turned out, finished at 1.004 and got 58 bottles. Starting OG with fruit adjustment was 1.049, so finished at 5.9% To me the raspberry is there, more in aroma than taste, my wife says she doesn't taste or smell it so another example of how each persons tastes are different. I mainly made this for her so it sucks she doesn't pick up the raspberry, but she still says it's good, which is very rare for her. She's is pretty honest about what she thinks about what I make.

Without being cold and carbonated no particular flavor stands out more than others. It has some very very mild dark fruit notes, again nothing stands out in particular, some malt like sweetness from the Vienna but it fits even though it's a Saison, then for me there's a nice undertone of raspberry that makes this fit as a summer beer.

I plan to open at least a couple for July 4th, will only be about a week in the bottle. I'll post any thoughts/differences along with a pic or two hopefully after that.

Thanks for the recipe, hope this brew works out in your nano brewery!
 
bolus14 said:
Bottled yesterday and I'm happy with how this turned out, finished at 1.004 and got 58 bottles. Starting OG with fruit adjustment was 1.049, so finished at 5.9% To me the raspberry is there, more in aroma than taste, my wife says she doesn't taste or smell it so another example of how each persons tastes are different. I mainly made this for her so it sucks she doesn't pick up the raspberry, but she still says it's good, which is very rare for her. She's is pretty honest about what she thinks about what I make.

Without being cold and carbonated no particular flavor stands out more than others. It has some very very mild dark fruit notes, again nothing stands out in particular, some malt like sweetness from the Vienna but it fits even though it's a Saison, then for me there's a nice undertone of raspberry that makes this fit as a summer beer.

I plan to open at least a couple for July 4th, will only be about a week in the bottle. I'll post any thoughts/differences along with a pic or two hopefully after that.

Thanks for the recipe, hope this brew works out in your nano brewery!
Click to expand...

Thanks! This is year 2 of the nano, have this on tap right now. I changed the recipe for contract brewing to make it cheaper, it is a bit different tasting but still very good. Got rid of the candi syrup, upped the chocolate wheat, and switched to raspberry extract. It has been a very popular beer.
 
Interesting changes. Seems to me a lot of the flavor comes from the candi syrup so it seems like you'd be making it more one dimensional, but I understand the cost involved too.

My initial thoughts were to get more chocolate to cone through, so I can see how raising the wheat would help. I was thinking of adding pale chocolate malt and less candi syrup, maybe just 1/2lb.
 
bolus14 said:
Interesting changes. Seems to me a lot of the flavor comes from the candi syrup so it seems like you'd be making it more one dimensional, but I understand the cost involved too.

My initial thoughts were to get more chocolate to cone through, so I can see how raising the wheat would help. I was thinking of adding pale chocolate malt and less candi syrup, maybe just 1/2lb.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's pretty much what you'll get if you do that. But I wouldn't use pale chocolate malt, it just doesn't have the SRMs to get the color right without using too much, and the roasty flavor will overpower everything.
 
Another thing I have noticed is that the first few weeks in the bottle the raspberry taste came across as the tartness you get in the aftertaste of raspberries. Tried another last night, a month in the bottle, and it was more of what I originally expected, the sweet and tart that raspberries have. Is this something you've noticed? I'm thinking it's more to do with the yeast finally settling down and allowing other flavors to come through, typical for what I've seen on the other Saisons I've made. You used 3711 and I used 566, but many speculate that it's the same strain, at the very least they share many of the same characteristics, fermenting temp, don't stall like other Saison strains, fuller mouthfeel.

After making about 4 or 5 different Saisons I think i'm settling into 4-5 weeks for fermentation, then at least 4 weeks in the bottle. I think that time table allows for a clean fermentation and then enough time for the Saison spice and funk to mellow and contribute to the flavor rather than taking over.
 
bolus14 said:
Another thing I have noticed is that the first few weeks in the bottle the raspberry taste came across as the tartness you get in the aftertaste of raspberries. Tried another last night, a month in the bottle, and it was more of what I originally expected, the sweet and tart that raspberries have. Is this something you've noticed? I'm thinking it's more to do with the yeast finally settling down and allowing other flavors to come through, typical for what I've seen on the other Saisons I've made. You used 3711 and I used 566, but many speculate that it's the same strain, at the very least they share many of the same characteristics, fermenting temp, don't stall like other Saison strains, fuller mouthfeel.

After making about 4 or 5 different Saisons I think i'm settling into 4-5 weeks for fermentation, then at least 4 weeks in the bottle. I think that time table allows for a clean fermentation and then enough time for the Saison spice and funk to mellow and contribute to the flavor rather than taking over.
Click to expand...

Aging a little bit will help the yeast clear. Saison yeast has a really poor flocculation, a bit of a trade-off for it's high attenuation and fool-proof temperature range. Yep, you're right.

I still love this beer, but my black tripel is similar and way more popular at the nano. You can easily do a version with raspberries or coffee, too. Working on a brett version, too.

Shadow of Truth
Black Belgian tripel
1.076 OG
60% Pils
20% Vienna
15% table sugar
5% carafa III dehusked
3711 yeast
9% ABV
 
That sounds awesome. The general feedback on my saison was it was OK, but lacked something or that it was too tart.
The black triple, or strong dark as son may argue, would be nice to try. Have you tried with brown sugar or turbinado instead of table? Just wondering if it would add anything. If you're aiming for a triple I would think go table and keep the finish and taste cleaner. If you're going strong dark I would think a darker sugar could add to the complexity.

Also, is it a tripel if you're using saison yeast? And why is it that you can't find dark tripels?
 

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