First Wort Hopping

Jarov · May 2, 2013

I've got a kit from Northern Brewer that I plan on brewing, here's the recipe.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/WestCoastImperialIPA.pdf

It calls for a first wort hop, and I'm curious about what it will do to the finished product. In this case, the first wort hops are only the bittering hops, and I'm wondering if it will give the beer a bittering like the 90-minute IPA, where the bitterness isn't upfront and full immediately like my previous beers but instead will slowly fade in and reach a climax then fade out.

Weizer · May 2, 2013

In my opinion FWH is a necessity with ANY IPA. It really smooths out the bitterness and enhances the hop flavors.

Ridire · May 2, 2013

How would you do this with a BIAB setup?

EDIT: and do you just forgo your 20 minute addition if you do this?

Jarov · May 2, 2013

Weizer said:
In my opinion FWH is a necessity with ANY IPA. It really smooths out the bitterness and enhances the hop flavors.

Thanks I've heard it makes the bitterness smoother and that's exactly what I'm looking for. If everything goes well with this batch I'll definitely FWH any IPA's in the future

Weizer · May 2, 2013

Ridire said:
How would you do this with a BIAB setup?

EDIT: and do you just forgo your 20 minute addition if you do this?

You just add the hops after you pull out the drained bag. You need to keep that 20 minute addition..it's for flavoring/aroma!

Ridire · May 2, 2013

Weizer said:
You just add the hops after you pull out the drained bag. You need to keep that 20 minute addition..it's for flavoring/aroma!

In trying to estimate IBU, how do you factor in the FWH? Does BeerSmith do it? I am not all hung up on knowing the exact IBU's but I want make sure I don't make something that is going to melt my tongue. I am much more into the hoppy taste than the bitterness. It sounds like this is ideal for me then, right, if it smooths out the bitterness? I am planning to do an IPA with 10 oz of 9.3 and 10.3 AA hops (Centennial and Amarillo) but with no additions before 25 minutes. Not sure how to change my hop schedule up to fit in this FWH. I'm shooting for around 55-60 IBU with this.

mcbaumannerb · May 2, 2013

Yes - in Beersmith just check the "Use" list and you'll see First Wort in there.

Ridire · May 2, 2013

mcbaumannerb said:
Yes - in Beersmith just check the "Use" list and you'll see First Wort in there.

Thanks. Never looked for it because I never thought of doing FWH. I guess I can then tweak the amount of hops and still have an idea of IBU.

Cool.

Weizer · May 2, 2013

Ridire said:
In trying to estimate IBU, how do you factor in the FWH? Does BeerSmith do it? I am not all hung up on knowing the exact IBU's but I want make sure I don't make something that is going to melt my tongue. I am much more into the hoppy taste than the bitterness. It sounds like this is ideal for me then, right, if it smooths out the bitterness? I am planning to do an IPA with 10 oz of 9.3 and 10.3 AA hops (Centennial and Amarillo) but with no additions before 25 minutes. Not sure how to change my hop schedule up to fit in this FWH. I'm shooting for around 55-60 IBU with this.

When you add the hop into your recipe, click the drop down and change it from boil to FWH. I believe it increases ibu's by around 10%.

bobbrews · May 2, 2013

Weizer said:
In my opinion FWH is a necessity with ANY IPA. It really smooths out the bitterness and enhances the hop flavors.

Preposterous!!! ...Aside from the first three words

The problem is not the traditional bitter; it's the human propensity to dislike bitter flavors in general. We tend to prefer sweet, sour, salty, fatty, rich before bitter. So we invent ways to subdue the bitterness. Truth is, the IPA style is an innately bitter and unbalanced style. Either love it for what it is or don't brew IPAs. Perhaps APA's would be more suited for some of you who are striving for "balance" and subdued bitterness.

There are more top notch commericial IPAs/IIPAs out there that DO NOT use FWH than those that do. And there is nothing wrong with their flavor or bitterness. They are rather smooth on the palate, pungent with aroma, and complex with flavor. Come to think of it, I can't even name three top-rated IPA/IIPAs that do FWH. Homebrewer forums like to promote the FWH idea for IPA's because they can't produce anything near what they can buy commercially. Everyone has a sense of personal pride for their own beers, but the reality is that you are not most likely not brewing anything like a Heady or a Pliny... especially not with FWH. I really think you should brew a perfect IPA without FWH before you start delving into the fad for this style in the long run, which will limit you.

I strongly believe a true American IPA/IIPA should have a traditional bittering addition added to a full rolling boil. Whether that addition is large or small is up to your personal tastes. But adding hops to a full rolling boil allows the hop polyphenols to bind with the wort proteins in the hot break, which helps to create a smooth, pleasant yet bitter beer with a clearer body. If you don't get a good hot break, you'll have something with more residual polyphenols left in your glass and your IPA will taste harsh and unpleasant.

Jarov · May 2, 2013

bobbrews said:
Preposterous!!! ...Aside from the first three words The problem is not the traditional bitter; it's the human propensity to dislike bitter flavors in general. We tend to prefer sweet, sour, salty, fatty, rich before bitter. So we invent ways to subdue the bitterness. Truth is, the IPA style is an innately bitter and unbalanced style. Either love it for what it is or don't brew IPAs. Perhaps APA's would be more suited for some of you who are striving for "balance" and subdued bitterness.

There are more top notch commericial IPAs/IIPAs out there that DO NOT use FWH than those that do. And there is nothing wrong with their flavor or bitterness. They are rather smooth on the palate, pungent with aroma, and complex with flavor. Come to think of it, I can't even name three top-rated IPA/IIPAs that do FWH. Homebrewer forums like to promote the FWH idea for IPA's because they can't produce anything near what they can buy commercially. Everyone has a sense of personal pride for their own beers, but the reality is that you are not most likely not brewing anything like a Heady or a Pliny... especially not with FWH. I really think you should brew a perfect IPA without FWH before you start delving into the fad for this style in the long run, which will limit you.

I strongly believe a true American IPA/IIPA should have a traditional bittering addition added to a full rolling boil. Whether that addition is large or small is up to your personal tastes. But adding hops to a full rolling boil allows the hop polyphenols to bind with the wort proteins in the hot break, which helps to create a smooth, pleasant yet bitter beer with a clearer body. If you don't get a good hot break, you'll have something with more residual polyphenols left in your glass and your IPA will taste harsh and unpleasant.

Thanks for your input, Almost all of the beers I've brewed are IPA or APA and I plan on FWH this beer, although if I brew it again in the future which I probably will, I'll through the hops in after the hot break and I'll make sure to have some good tasting notes so I can compare both of the beers. It would be a great learning experience for me to see exactly what first wort hopping does to a beer and I'll decide which style I prefer, as it's up to everyone's personal preference to choose a certain style or technique with brewing.

Yooper · May 2, 2013

Jarov said:
Thanks for your input, Almost all of the beers I've brewed are IPA or APA and I plan on FWH this beer, although if I brew it again in the future which I probably will, I'll through the hops in after the hot break and I'll make sure to have some good tasting notes so I can compare both of the beers. It would be a great learning experience for me to see exactly what first wort hopping does to a beer and I'll decide which style I prefer, as it's up to everyone's personal preference to choose a certain style or technique with brewing.

Yes, it really is personal preference. I almost always FWH my IPAs and APAs, and love the results. I also prefer fairly low sulfate in the water, compared to many pale ale water profiles. That's not right or wrong, it just is my preference.

Try both and see which you prefer for yourself.

Weizer · May 2, 2013

bobbrews said:
Preposterous!!! ...Aside from the first three words The problem is not the traditional bitter; it's the human propensity to dislike bitter flavors in general. We tend to prefer sweet, sour, salty, fatty, rich before bitter. So we invent ways to subdue the bitterness. Truth is, the IPA style is an innately bitter and unbalanced style. Either love it for what it is or don't brew IPAs. Perhaps APA's would be more suited for some of you who are striving for "balance" and subdued bitterness.

There are more top notch commericial IPAs/IIPAs out there that DO NOT use FWH than those that do. And there is nothing wrong with their flavor or bitterness. They are rather smooth on the palate, pungent with aroma, and complex with flavor. Come to think of it, I can't even name three top-rated IPA/IIPAs that do FWH. Homebrewer forums like to promote the FWH idea for IPA's because they can't produce anything near what they can buy commercially. Everyone has a sense of personal pride for their own beers, but the reality is that you are not most likely not brewing anything like a Heady or a Pliny... especially not with FWH. I really think you should brew a perfect IPA without FWH before you start delving into the fad for this style in the long run, which will limit you.

I strongly believe a true American IPA/IIPA should have a traditional bittering addition added to a full rolling boil. Whether that addition is large or small is up to your personal tastes. But adding hops to a full rolling boil allows the hop polyphenols to bind with the wort proteins in the hot break, which helps to create a smooth, pleasant yet bitter beer with a clearer body. If you don't get a good hot break, you'll have something with more residual polyphenols left in your glass and your IPA will taste harsh and unpleasant.

There is a reason that post started with "In my opinion". I thoroughly enjoy heavily hopped beers..my go to commercial beers are Simtra and hop shortage from Knee Deep. If you haven't had either of those, then your words are meaningless

I've just had better results with FWH in my IPA/APA styles. To each their own.

BigFloyd · May 2, 2013

Yooper said:
Try both and see which you prefer for yourself.

This ^^^^^.

I'm still in the process of trying FWH with different (non-IPA) styles. So far, I'm very pleased with the results.

I am curious as to how I'll want to do FWH when I get my E-BIAB rig up and running.

HopHoarder · May 2, 2013

I've done identical recipies but did one using FWH and another, same hops and amount, at 45 mins. I liked the FWH version better, but again to each his own.

Calichusetts · May 3, 2013

I went through a long haul of FWH...then even dropped that to just late hopping. Recently went back to FWH and now I even added the traditional 60 as well. Not only is it your own opinion, you will find that your palette can really change over the course of a few months or a year. I am really into IPAs with a bitter "bite" to it right now.

Pappers_ · May 3, 2013

Add me to the list of those who FWH IPAs. I also mash hop (toss one or two ounces of hops in with the grain in the mash tun) which is something else to try and see if you like.

Weizer · May 3, 2013

Pappers_ said:
Add me to the list of those who FWH IPAs. I also mash hop (toss one or two ounces of hops in with the grain in the mash tun) which is something else to try and see if you like.

I've been really curious about mash hopping..my brew partner despises the idea though. Do you use whole leaf or pellets? I read somewhere that you can use whole leaf in a muslin bag in the mash and then reuse them in the boil?

Pappers_ · May 4, 2013

Weizer said:
I've been really curious about mash hopping..my brew partner despises the idea though. Do you use whole leaf or pellets? I read somewhere that you can use whole leaf in a muslin bag in the mash and then reuse them in the boil?

I've done mash hopping with both whole leaf and pellets. I just stir them into the mash, I don't bag them separately. The only beer I've done this with are IPAs - I've used Chinook before and am waiting for our latest to bottle condition, in which I used Summit in the mash.

Weizer · May 4, 2013

Pappers_ said:
I've done mash hopping with both whole leaf and pellets. I just stir them into the mash, I don't bag them separately. The only beer I've done this with are IPAs - I've used Chinook before and am waiting for our latest to bottle condition, in which I used Summit in the mash.

Right on. I'm doing a double IPA today and just mash hopped with 2 oz of citra. We'll see how it turns out.

Jarov · Jun 5, 2013

Well as an update to those interested, I took a gravity reading of the first wort hopped double IPA a couple of days ago, it was where I wanted it so I'm now dry hopping it, and I tasted the beer warm and cold. First wort hopping definitely changed the bitterness from my previous brews. Instead of a big bitter punch to the face immediately, the first wort hopped bitterness was definitely there immediately, but not as strong, and instead it kept its intensity for a longer time before tapering off, and left a good lingering bitterness that lasted a good amount of time. I really liked the result, and I would have to say I may FWH in the future for all of my hoppy beers.

woozy · Jun 5, 2013

bobbrews said:
1. Truth is, the IPA style is an innately bitter and unbalanced style.

2. They [top notch commercial IPAS that do not first hop] are rather smooth on the palate, pungent with aroma, and complex with flavor.

3.Homebrewer forums like to promote the FWH idea for IPA's because they can't produce anything near what they can buy commercially.

I'm mildly confused. Isn't #2 more or less a description of "balanced".

And why do you think it is that homebrewers *can't* produce a decent IPA?

It seems #1 argues for the point "most beer drinkers don't actually like IPAs (too bitter) but think they do and first hopping makes something that isn't really an IPA (not as bitter)"

But #3 seems to argue for the point "most home brewers can't make for a good IPA so they do first hopping as the best way to imitate it".

bobbrews · Jun 12, 2013

woozy said:
I'm mildly confused. Isn't #2 more or less a description of "balanced".

No, because those beers are still more bitter than anything else. That is what makes an IPA an IPA. They are more bitter than milds, sours, stouts, pales, browns, etc. If commercial breweries can make fairly smooth, yet innately bitter IPAs without employing the FWH technique, than why can't you?

woozy said:
And why do you think it is that homebrewers *can't* produce a decent IPA?

In my experience, most homebrewers don't produce amazing IPAs. Some do... I do... But in the grand scheme of things, I wouldn't pay for a case of homebrewed IPA selected at random. The IPA style is regularly regarded as one of the easier styles to brew. Sure, anyone can brew a bitter beer that is capable of giving someone a bitter face. But the truth is that an amazing IPA, full of potent aroma, extreme drinkability, great body/head/color/carbonation, and pleasing flavor, yet still innately bitter in character is quite difficult to fully master.

Jarov · Jun 12, 2013

Can we quit arguing about wether or not someone should first wort hop?... This thread wasn't about convincing people to change their ways, it was about learning what first wort hopping does for a beer. If a person likes to first wort hop their beer, let them, it's their preference. If there's anything I've learned about craft beer and brewing, it's breaking the norms, trying new things, and above all, making something you enjoy. Now if you all can't stop fighting don't post again.

bobbrews · Jun 13, 2013

No one's fighting buddy. Calm down.

First Wort Hopping

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