WLP800 and Saflager 34/70

Let me start by saying I know these 2 strains have little in common other than being lager yeasts. But I have recently stepped up to 10 gallon batches so I have been doing 5 gallon side by sides comparings yeasts.

It's been a long time since I have done a lager. Easily in excess of 12 years. So some of my lager knowledge is rusty. What little lager knowledge I retained is probably out of date.

Brewed last Sunday (4/7). 5 gallons in each carboy. 1.054 OG and about 25 IBU. I was going for German pils but overshot my gravity a bit. My new setup is much more efficient than my old one was.

Grain bill:
85% Pilsner
10% Munich
5% Carapils

I mashed for a little over 90 min at 148F. Boiled and Added 100% Tettnanger to 25 IBU (60min; 10min and knockout for a bit of light aroma)

Chilled to 58F, aerated and pitched both yeasts.

WLP800 is 2 vials in a 1.6L starter. I grew it on a stir plate at ambient (68F) and put the starter in the fermenting fridge overnight to drop clear. Decanted all but the yeast and pitched. I smelled and tasted some of the decanted (unhopped) starter beer. Nice and malty. Clean aroma. Zero fruity esters or diacetyl.

The 34/70 is 2 packages, re-hydrated in about 300ml of room-temp, boiled and cooled water.

I pitched and got from 58F down to around 52F in around 10 hrs. Both beers have now been 5 days fluctuating between 51-54F. I wanted to point out some differences between the 2 fermentations. I'm looking to see if some more experienced lager brewers can tell me whether what I am seeing is expected. And I would like to get some input on where I go from here.

Both beers showed strong fermentation within 12 hours. Color-wise, the 2 beers with a new pitch of yeast were nearly identical.

WLP800:
- Has had a huge krausen. In fact, around day 3, I had to attach a blow off as some krausen had pushed into the airlock. I smelled the krausen and yeast sediment. Wow. My ale fermentations never smell this clean.

- The krausen completely fills the space between the beer's surface and the neck of the carboy. Blow off was minimal but it was enough that I felt I needed the blow off tube.

- I have been able to keep the temperature of the WLP800 under control better than the dry yeast. It has stayed consistently around 52F once I got it there.

- Day 5 and active fermentation seems to be slowing significantly. The beer is already beginning to drop clear. As a result, it is now several shades darker.

Saflager 34/70:
- Active fermentation at almost the same time the WLP800 took off.

- Krausen has never gotten more than about an inch thick. Absolutely no need for a blow off.

- Temperature has been harder to control. They have been side by side in the same fermenting fridge. The dry yeast has consistently run about 2F warmer than the liquid. It has hovered in the 53-55F range.

- Day 5 and this one also still seems to be fermenting more actively than the liquid. It's much more murky with break material and such still swirling around in the current.

So my questions are:
- Does day 5 seem a little early for the liquid yeast to be slowing down? I always remembered lagers taking forever. But I rarely pitched this big and did not aerate back in the day. Both beers got over 60 sec of pure O2. The liquid was a freshly-grown starter, right at what mrmalty suggested for my initial gravity.

- For those of you who have used the 34/70, does what I describe above sound right?. 12 hr take off and a slow, steady ferment. I've been staying within the temperature recommendatiosn of the yeast though.

- I plan to take a gravity reading a week out from brew day (sometime this weekend). I am still deciding about warming for a diacetyl rest at this point. The last time I did a lager I remembered getting a lot of sulfur. I've got a little sulfur this time but not bad at all. Since the WLP800 starter had zero diacetyl, I am hoping the full beer will be low or absent of it.

In his German pils podcast, Jamil said that even at fermenting temps, a lager yeast will clean up diacetyl, given enough time (4 weeks or so). If I don't detect any in either beer this weekend, I might keep them at ferment temps another week or so instead of a diacetyl rest. Any thoughts there from you lager experts?

Either way, I am figuring leaving in the primary 3 weeks (whether or not I do a diacetyl rest). Then the current plan is to cool them down as cold as I can go without cavitating the BetterBottles and racking off the yeast, straight to kegs for lagering.

Any and all ideas are appreciated.

Checked gravity today (within a few hours of being exactly one week out from pitch). I was not quite expecting what I got. The WLP 800 already looked like it was clearing. The 34/70 was still murky.

The WLP800 is sitting at 1.029 while the 34/70 is still cloudy and reading 1.016. I'm expecting around a 1.013 finish for these.

The 800 still tastes and smells a little on the sweet side (for obvious reasons). There's also a hint of diacetyl.

The 34/70 is already crisping up a bit. I don't get any diacetyl on the nose.

Figuring I will leave them both at 54F for another week and begin the ramp up for diacetyl rest next weekend. While I get no diacetyl on the 34/70, I see no harm in the temperature raise.

Wondering if I need to take the 800 to room temp or leave it a few more days. It stayed pretty close to 50-52, whereas the 34/70 ran about 54 the whole week. I am wondering if the 800 is just running a degree or 2 behind the other because of the temp.

I use that same dry yeast with similar results, lots of gravity points still drop after it quits bubbling so just leave it alone. I ferment at 52 for 2 weeks, then on week three I raise the temp 2 degrees a day till I get to 60 and leave it there and then keg and start layering at the end of 3 weeks.

I like both of those strains. Most of my lagers are at FG in a week but I still tend to leave them at room temp for a few days then crash them to 30F or so for lagering.

twallin said:

I use that same dry yeast with similar results, lots of gravity points still drop after it quits bubbling so just leave it alone. I ferment at 52 for 2 weeks, then on week three I raise the temp 2 degrees a day till I get to 60 and leave it there and then keg and start layering at the end of 3 weeks.

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How about the 800? I am just surprised that the 800 is still 15 or so points from FG while the 34/70 is almost there. Then again I usually brew ales so the fact that I am so far of my FG a week after pitching makes me twitchy. I know I need to back down, but I'm one of those brewers that's ok telling OTHER guys to rdwhahb.

I tasted both and the grain bill is rock solid. I love the taste of munich. The 34/70 is already developing that nice minerally, grainy quality I like from pilsner malts, noble hops and a clean lager yeast.

I thought I detected a little DMS in the WLP 800 sample, and I was freaking out until I realized that a) I didn't have DMS in the dry yeast beer and b) at nearly 1030, after tasting again, it was un-fermented, sweet wort.

Your ferment schedule Is exactly what I was looking at doing. I figure I should be most of the way through main fermentation at 2 weeks. I had planned on 2 degrees a day starting next weekend until I am 10f above primary temp. Then 4 days at that temp. Then 2 f a day until I am back in the mid 40s. Once they have dropped clear, it's into the keg and a cold crash to 32-4F for 4-6 week of lagering.